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<blockquote data-quote="losthope" data-source="post: 58377213" data-attributes="member: 94863"><p>(Part 2 of 2)</p><p></p><p><em>We would all love some response from God when we are spiritually struggling I certainly sympathise, no EMPATHISE with you there. For whatever reason God at this point in time has chosen for both of us not to experience things as other Christians seem to all the time. Many other Christians do not understand our predicament. It is b****y hard when everyone seems to have spiritual gifts and prayers handed to them on a platter and in comparison we dont even get the crumbs. Like me you would really have to walk by faith in God not by sight. Other Christians say it as a mere platitude to you, I do not.</em> </p><p></p><p>You have described the situation better than I could.</p><p></p><p><em>You have been able to work. You have had a successful marriage. You have lived in a country that still provides relatively free medical care. The next sentence concerns me were these unsupportive people close to you?</em></p><p></p><p>Were the unsupportive people close to me? Some of them, yes. Very close. The marriage has not always been successful. Also for ten years I was unable to work, after my boss told me to Go home and come back when you are better.</p><p></p><p><em>What a difficult lesson you are learning right now. Can you take a step back and think of how many other people out there would be able to manage what you are going through? You may not feel you are strong. As a Christian you would have Gods strength. Remember what the apostle Paul had to go through. 2 Corinthians 12:1-10 Paul was expected to evangelise to a huge amount of people especially the Gentiles. He wrote many books in the New Testament so of course he had to know Jesus directly in person like the other original disciples. Have you or I had to do anything like that?</em> </p><p></p><p>I know that there are other people who have been through what I have been through, in that for a time they genuinely believed that they were saved but eventually abandoned their faith because of apparent lack of feedback from God. I was definitely not strong when it first happened, but I have learned to live with the situation. I have no choice.</p><p></p><p>As for Paul, he had special revelation from God and had a special task to do for God. The two go together. If Paul had never received anything from God he would not have wanted to be an evangelist to the gentiles.</p><p></p><p><em>I used to consider myself Charismatic as well. The fervour and sincerity of the people was such a contrast to the traditional Catholic Church. The biggest problem I have with them now is more doctrinal rather than the place of emotions in worship. It is the subtle shift from Bible plus experiences to Experiences plus the bible to Experiences with a couple of Bible verses to back up the eligibility of Experiences to be classified as Christian. (I only noticed that after I had gone back to church well after the surgery). That is a completely different topic however. I dont think any denomination is without its faults because all denominations have people in them.</em></p><p></p><p>The conventional trinity of God consists of father, son and spirit. However some Christians appear to worship other things the Bible, their church, the pastor, spiritual experiences, and so on breaking the first commandment.</p><p></p><p>I agree with you about all denominations. We need many denominations because people have different needs and different temperaments. Every denomination has helpful and unhelpful people, sometimes in positions of authority.</p><p></p><p><em>Well there you go! If you are capable of change in those areas then why not spiritual areas as well?</em> </p><p></p><p>I agree. I just need a bit of a nudge from God.</p><p></p><p><em>Well that really needs to stop. God is who Christians worship and so you need to keep your eyes on God. 12:1-2 If a person runs a race they have to keep their eyes on the track ahead of them and keep their eyes off their competitors</em></p><p></p><p>In most races what you want to do is come first, and in most races the athletes etc definitely keep an eye on their competitors. Unless they are effectively racing against the clock.</p><p></p><p>It sounds good to ask me to keep my eyes on God. But how can I do this? If only I knew which direction to look.</p><p></p><p><em>That is sad to read you havent had enough support for you and your child. Have you been able to forgive your family for their misunderstandings and perhaps unrealistic expectations of you?</em> </p><p></p><p>Not always, no. As an aside, I recognise that forgiveness is very important. But it has always seemed strange to me that Christians ask people to forgive someone who has not repented, when God insists on repentance.</p><p></p><p><em>Romans 9 seems to be one of the favourite predestination passages. Look at Esau Genesis 25 was he a good person that God rejected unfairly? Or was he someone who put himself first e.g. symptom of that gave up his firstborn rights (major privilege in his culture) to get a good feed.</em> </p><p></p><p>Yes Romans 9 implies predestination. It suggests that God has favourites, accepting some and rejecting others. God rejected Esau for putting himself first, but did not reject Jacob for deceiving Isaac in Genesis 27. They both broke one of the commandments.</p><p></p><p><em>Christians certainly had to know what God had done to be willing to die for their faith. That was done through faith as a result of knowing what God did i.e. through the Bible and responding in faith. Genuine Christian faith from the beginning was not from mere personal experiences and signs but through faith in Jesus.</em> </p><p></p><p>There are examples in Acts of people believing because of signs and personal experiences.</p><p></p><p><em>P.S. I've just seen your comment about that radio show. Yes they are very cautious and therefore (by default) anti-charismatic because Charismatics are so quick to accept any spiritual experience as being from God. Finding that balance is quite a difficult thing! </em></p><p><em>Apostle John calls for the testing of spirits, 1 John 4:1-6 therefore there must be genuine spiritual experiences from God when it is HIS will.</em></p><p></p><p>I would not agree that all charismatic Christians are quick to accept any spiritual experience as coming from God. I have met some who do speak of testing spirits and recognise the possibility of false spiritual experiences.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="losthope, post: 58377213, member: 94863"] (Part 2 of 2) [I]We would all love some response from God when we are spiritually struggling I certainly sympathise, no EMPATHISE with you there. For whatever reason God at this point in time has chosen for both of us not to experience things as other Christians seem to all the time. Many other Christians do not understand our predicament. It is b****y hard when everyone seems to have spiritual gifts and prayers handed to them on a platter and in comparison we dont even get the crumbs. Like me you would really have to walk by faith in God not by sight. Other Christians say it as a mere platitude to you, I do not.[/I] You have described the situation better than I could. [I]You have been able to work. You have had a successful marriage. You have lived in a country that still provides relatively free medical care. The next sentence concerns me were these unsupportive people close to you?[/I] Were the unsupportive people close to me? Some of them, yes. Very close. The marriage has not always been successful. Also for ten years I was unable to work, after my boss told me to Go home and come back when you are better. [I]What a difficult lesson you are learning right now. Can you take a step back and think of how many other people out there would be able to manage what you are going through? You may not feel you are strong. As a Christian you would have Gods strength. Remember what the apostle Paul had to go through. 2 Corinthians 12:1-10 Paul was expected to evangelise to a huge amount of people especially the Gentiles. He wrote many books in the New Testament so of course he had to know Jesus directly in person like the other original disciples. Have you or I had to do anything like that?[/I] I know that there are other people who have been through what I have been through, in that for a time they genuinely believed that they were saved but eventually abandoned their faith because of apparent lack of feedback from God. I was definitely not strong when it first happened, but I have learned to live with the situation. I have no choice. As for Paul, he had special revelation from God and had a special task to do for God. The two go together. If Paul had never received anything from God he would not have wanted to be an evangelist to the gentiles. [I]I used to consider myself Charismatic as well. The fervour and sincerity of the people was such a contrast to the traditional Catholic Church. The biggest problem I have with them now is more doctrinal rather than the place of emotions in worship. It is the subtle shift from Bible plus experiences to Experiences plus the bible to Experiences with a couple of Bible verses to back up the eligibility of Experiences to be classified as Christian. (I only noticed that after I had gone back to church well after the surgery). That is a completely different topic however. I dont think any denomination is without its faults because all denominations have people in them.[/I] The conventional trinity of God consists of father, son and spirit. However some Christians appear to worship other things the Bible, their church, the pastor, spiritual experiences, and so on breaking the first commandment. I agree with you about all denominations. We need many denominations because people have different needs and different temperaments. Every denomination has helpful and unhelpful people, sometimes in positions of authority. [I]Well there you go! If you are capable of change in those areas then why not spiritual areas as well?[/I] I agree. I just need a bit of a nudge from God. [I]Well that really needs to stop. God is who Christians worship and so you need to keep your eyes on God. 12:1-2 If a person runs a race they have to keep their eyes on the track ahead of them and keep their eyes off their competitors[/I] In most races what you want to do is come first, and in most races the athletes etc definitely keep an eye on their competitors. Unless they are effectively racing against the clock. It sounds good to ask me to keep my eyes on God. But how can I do this? If only I knew which direction to look. [I]That is sad to read you havent had enough support for you and your child. Have you been able to forgive your family for their misunderstandings and perhaps unrealistic expectations of you?[/I] Not always, no. As an aside, I recognise that forgiveness is very important. But it has always seemed strange to me that Christians ask people to forgive someone who has not repented, when God insists on repentance. [I]Romans 9 seems to be one of the favourite predestination passages. Look at Esau Genesis 25 was he a good person that God rejected unfairly? Or was he someone who put himself first e.g. symptom of that gave up his firstborn rights (major privilege in his culture) to get a good feed.[/I] Yes Romans 9 implies predestination. It suggests that God has favourites, accepting some and rejecting others. God rejected Esau for putting himself first, but did not reject Jacob for deceiving Isaac in Genesis 27. They both broke one of the commandments. [I]Christians certainly had to know what God had done to be willing to die for their faith. That was done through faith as a result of knowing what God did i.e. through the Bible and responding in faith. Genuine Christian faith from the beginning was not from mere personal experiences and signs but through faith in Jesus.[/I] There are examples in Acts of people believing because of signs and personal experiences. [I]P.S. I've just seen your comment about that radio show. Yes they are very cautious and therefore (by default) anti-charismatic because Charismatics are so quick to accept any spiritual experience as being from God. Finding that balance is quite a difficult thing! Apostle John calls for the testing of spirits, 1 John 4:1-6 therefore there must be genuine spiritual experiences from God when it is HIS will.[/I] I would not agree that all charismatic Christians are quick to accept any spiritual experience as coming from God. I have met some who do speak of testing spirits and recognise the possibility of false spiritual experiences. [/QUOTE]
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