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<blockquote data-quote="losthope" data-source="post: 58240049" data-attributes="member: 94863"><p>To joey down under, thank you for your recent contributions.</p><p></p><p>I downloaded the ebook about metanoia and read the first part of it. It is not easy reading. He suggests that the word sometimes translated as repent should instead be a challenge to change your mind, to develop a new way of thinking.</p><p></p><p>Maybe I do not understand the arguments fully in the ebook, but to me repentance ought to be an essential part of the changing of the mind that should come about when God starts to work in a person. Repentance is about turning away from a self-centred attitude and turning instead towards God, and beginning to think and to act as God wants the person to think and act. An example of how to help people to do this comes from the What would Jesus do movement, encouraging people to try to think in the way that God would want them to think.</p><p></p><p>I write about God being part of the process, working in the person, because for me it was not possible to sustain such an attitude in my own strength. It is not desirable to do it on my own either, because the Bible speaks of God acting on us to change us from within.</p><p></p><p>In a sense I have to use my own personal experience here, my experience of turning to God and having no response from God that I was aware of. I did not have a conviction of sin from the Holy Spirit that led me to have a great desire to repent. Also during the time that I was a believer the Holy Spirit did not try to encourage me to change my way of thinking, as far as I am aware. So in this sense it does not make any difference how the word metanoia is translated; in neither case did God respond to me in any way that I was aware of.</p><p></p><p>As you wrote to saralynn, grace is needed from God.</p><p></p><p>When I wrote about 2 Corinthians 4, I was not really suggesting that the devil is more powerful than God. Instead, I was questioning the statement. As for the ideas of predestination versus free will, I can conceive of a God that is able to reconcile those two ideas without any difficulty but it requires a very wide concept of time and eternity, and a God rather larger and more powerful than the God that most Christians appear to worship.</p><p></p><p>You wrote this:</p><p><em>If God made you psalm 139 ,if God knows everything from beginning to end of time Isaiah 44:6-8 , surely He would know whether you are sincere whether you actually feel it or not? Are you willing to change how you view things to please God? Are you willing to change behaviour to do His will?</em> </p><p></p><p>I could not really see the significance of the Isaiah passage here. You ask if I am willing to change how I view things to please God. Well, I thought that was what I did when I became a believer but it did not help me to find a relationship with God. So the best answer I can give is that yes I am willing to change how I view things and I am willing to change my behaviour, but I cannot do it yet because I would just make the same mistakes (whatever they were) as I did when I used to be a believer many years ago. First I need to find out what went wrong then, and if necessary put it right; only then will I be ready to trust God again.</p><p></p><p><em>The thing that has struck me during your conversation is how many good christians you have around you for support.</em></p><p></p><p>It has not seemed like that to me. I always have to go and seek out Christians to help, and many are not willing or they simply admit that they are out of their depth when they hear my story. Or they give up when I do not seem to be making any progress. Currently I am speaking with only one Christian, the minister of a local Baptist church, and I will not see him again until early September.</p><p></p><p><em>Well there is a good and a bad side of being a thinker. It is good for a christian to seek to understand why they believe what they believe. That way it's not a mindless faith that is easily shaken when things happen that are not easily explained by merely quoting scripture. It is a bad thing when you keep on seeing every thing that the world uses to explain away Christianity as being a possible logical point of view and in the process forget that people who seem to validly explain away religion often do not WANT to believe, rather than CANNOT believe.</em> </p><p></p><p>I agree that there are people who do not want to believe, although that does not necessarily mean that their arguments are worthless. However, it was not listening to anti-Christian arguments that caused me to question my salvation and eventually to abandon my faith. The cause was lack of discernable response from God. A single word from God would counter all of the atheistic arguments in the world.</p><p></p><p>Of course I have used my mind to try to understand why I was a believer for two years without ever being aware of any response from God. I have thought of five possibilities that are consistent with my experience. One of those possibilities is that I did not have a real conviction of sin and therefore did not experience a special need for a saviour. I am trying to investigate that possibility by starting this thread. But I remain aware of the other four possibilities and am also aware that other possibilities might later be discovered that are consistent with my experience.</p><p></p><p><em>I meant trust that you were serving God in your own special way. Please don't think you might earn a feeling relationship when you do enough good things.</em></p><p></p><p>No, I never thought that.</p><p></p><p><em>With you and I a relationship with God means faith NOT feelings.</em> </p><p></p><p>Yes, and I had faith during the time that I was a believer. Just ask some of the people who knew me back then. Faith yes, but no relationship with God.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="losthope, post: 58240049, member: 94863"] To joey down under, thank you for your recent contributions. I downloaded the ebook about metanoia and read the first part of it. It is not easy reading. He suggests that the word sometimes translated as repent should instead be a challenge to change your mind, to develop a new way of thinking. Maybe I do not understand the arguments fully in the ebook, but to me repentance ought to be an essential part of the changing of the mind that should come about when God starts to work in a person. Repentance is about turning away from a self-centred attitude and turning instead towards God, and beginning to think and to act as God wants the person to think and act. An example of how to help people to do this comes from the What would Jesus do movement, encouraging people to try to think in the way that God would want them to think. I write about God being part of the process, working in the person, because for me it was not possible to sustain such an attitude in my own strength. It is not desirable to do it on my own either, because the Bible speaks of God acting on us to change us from within. In a sense I have to use my own personal experience here, my experience of turning to God and having no response from God that I was aware of. I did not have a conviction of sin from the Holy Spirit that led me to have a great desire to repent. Also during the time that I was a believer the Holy Spirit did not try to encourage me to change my way of thinking, as far as I am aware. So in this sense it does not make any difference how the word metanoia is translated; in neither case did God respond to me in any way that I was aware of. As you wrote to saralynn, grace is needed from God. When I wrote about 2 Corinthians 4, I was not really suggesting that the devil is more powerful than God. Instead, I was questioning the statement. As for the ideas of predestination versus free will, I can conceive of a God that is able to reconcile those two ideas without any difficulty but it requires a very wide concept of time and eternity, and a God rather larger and more powerful than the God that most Christians appear to worship. You wrote this: [I]If God made you psalm 139 ,if God knows everything from beginning to end of time Isaiah 44:6-8 , surely He would know whether you are sincere whether you actually feel it or not? Are you willing to change how you view things to please God? Are you willing to change behaviour to do His will?[/I] I could not really see the significance of the Isaiah passage here. You ask if I am willing to change how I view things to please God. Well, I thought that was what I did when I became a believer but it did not help me to find a relationship with God. So the best answer I can give is that yes I am willing to change how I view things and I am willing to change my behaviour, but I cannot do it yet because I would just make the same mistakes (whatever they were) as I did when I used to be a believer many years ago. First I need to find out what went wrong then, and if necessary put it right; only then will I be ready to trust God again. [I]The thing that has struck me during your conversation is how many good christians you have around you for support.[/I] It has not seemed like that to me. I always have to go and seek out Christians to help, and many are not willing or they simply admit that they are out of their depth when they hear my story. Or they give up when I do not seem to be making any progress. Currently I am speaking with only one Christian, the minister of a local Baptist church, and I will not see him again until early September. [I]Well there is a good and a bad side of being a thinker. It is good for a christian to seek to understand why they believe what they believe. That way it's not a mindless faith that is easily shaken when things happen that are not easily explained by merely quoting scripture. It is a bad thing when you keep on seeing every thing that the world uses to explain away Christianity as being a possible logical point of view and in the process forget that people who seem to validly explain away religion often do not WANT to believe, rather than CANNOT believe.[/I] I agree that there are people who do not want to believe, although that does not necessarily mean that their arguments are worthless. However, it was not listening to anti-Christian arguments that caused me to question my salvation and eventually to abandon my faith. The cause was lack of discernable response from God. A single word from God would counter all of the atheistic arguments in the world. Of course I have used my mind to try to understand why I was a believer for two years without ever being aware of any response from God. I have thought of five possibilities that are consistent with my experience. One of those possibilities is that I did not have a real conviction of sin and therefore did not experience a special need for a saviour. I am trying to investigate that possibility by starting this thread. But I remain aware of the other four possibilities and am also aware that other possibilities might later be discovered that are consistent with my experience. [I]I meant trust that you were serving God in your own special way. Please don't think you might earn a feeling relationship when you do enough good things.[/I] No, I never thought that. [I]With you and I a relationship with God means faith NOT feelings.[/I] Yes, and I had faith during the time that I was a believer. Just ask some of the people who knew me back then. Faith yes, but no relationship with God. [/QUOTE]
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