New York Catechism (it does exist!)

OpenDoor said:

I don't like being called dishonest, a liar, and that I should be ashamed.

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I apologize for calling you out on the statement about "similar language" appearing. Well, I apologize for being harsh and imprecise. I don't think that that post meant that other catechisms said things like the Pope being God himself on earth, but rather that he is the Vicar of Christ, the leader of the universal church, etc (which is part of the quote being searched for in the catechism, and notably the part that people had the most success in finding).

I still think that your post is highly misleading. If it is not intentionally so, it is because you have let your biases cloud your vision when reading the results in the thread that you linked to.

OpenDoor said:

btw I disagree that (CAF) is saying it is not possible. Of those that have a copy some say it can be some say it can not.

I would like to read it for myself.

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The one guy with the book says it's not possible.

Rule #4 regarding claims about Catholicism on the Internet (or anywhere really): if the only place you can find the information is on anti Catholic nutball conspiracy sites, it's either not real or taken out of context.

I just did a quick google search, and all I came up with were anti-Catholic sites.

Just found an interesting thread on CA about the NY Catechism....seems to be rubbish from what I've read.

OpenDoor said:

If it exist its real, if its out of context I would like to see it in context.

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You've already seen it in context.

If something sounds too crazy to be true, it probably is. That saying exists for a reason. There is little reason to believe such a doctrine ever existed and plenty of reasons not to.

OpenDoor said:

Online that about all I can find (outside of a pdh from an Episcopal Church)

but it looks like it exist and is not only from anti-catholics

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Yeah it was mentioned in the thread I read. But there does seem to be a cobbled up book titled New York Catechism. But from what I read it never had any sort of official authority. Catholic Answers has the thread.

OpenDoor said:

"There is nothing out of the ordinary for a book from the 1930's. It's pretty much a translation of Gasparri's Latin and the actual doctrinal information is inspired from the council of trent thus far. It was meant for priests and catechists alike to instruct those learning the faith. It was also reviewed for doctrinal errors by theology professors at the Gregorian, Angelicum and the Urban pontifical universities"

Is that anything? (honest question)

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The book in question in your quote from the CAF thread is not said to contain what the anti-Catholic sites quote from Boettner's book citing a supposed "New York Catechism".

It is a Catechism printed in New York, as were many. (New York was the major printing and publishing center.) It does not seem to contain what is claimed by Boettner. Unless it contains what Boettner quoted it is not the same book and cannot be claimed as the "New York Catechism".

BTW, no Catholic Catechism has ever said the things Boettner claims.

OpenDoor said:

"There is nothing out of the ordinary for a book from the 1930's. It's pretty much a translation of Gasparri's Latin and the actual doctrinal information is inspired from the council of trent thus far. It was meant for priests and catechists alike to instruct those learning the faith. It was also reviewed for doctrinal errors by theology professors at the Gregorian, Angelicum and the Urban pontifical universities"

Is that anything? (honest question)

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Quotes from Catholic Answers-

Pietro Cardinal Gasparri was a career bureaucrat who spent his life in Europe with the exception of a few years in Peru. He would have nothing to do with any catechism to be published in the US as he was a Vatican insider and not the correct choice to write any documents for the American Church. Furthermore, he couldn't have written one in his role as the Secretary of State for the Vatican, given that there were no official universal catechisms governing the Church at this time except for the one we've had since the Council of Trent (which is exactly what a catechism written by this man would have been!).

Basically put, if this "Catholic Catechism" or "New York Catechism" were to be a genuine book, an American would have been the one to have written it as was the case for the Baltimore Catechism. What we are looking at here is a very clever contraption, but not actual historical proof.

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The book exists, it was written by Cardinal Pietro Gasparri (as stated) and it was translated into English, published in 1932 and distributed in the United States (among other countries, including England).

http://books.google.com/books?id=iyU...ed=0CGYQ6AEwAA

I can't vouch for what it says, but according to Eric, it appears that the quote was a hodge-podge of selected phrases sewn together (which, in itself, is dishonest). I would actually like to see it all in context, but I can't find it online. Since so many use it to attack the Church, it might be worth getting a copy and sorting it all out.

I should add, if anyone looks for this publication, be aware that it was printed in two ways. The full text in three parts (a total of 482 pages) and in three volumes, each volume corresponding to the three parts of the full text. The division of the Catechism was Part 1. For Children. Part 2. For those who have received their First Communion and, Part 3. For Adults.

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Can all the actual phrases and terms in Boettner's "quote" be specifically traced to "The Catholic Catechism?" Or do we need to continue to search for the actual source of this quote (if it really exists)? I wished I had taken a closer look at your excerpts now -- they don't seem to match the "quote."

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Never mind. I looked up the book this "quote" came from and it became obvious that the writer (Boettner) probably made it up as he went. I would simply challenge those who use this quote to provide 1) Publication date, publisher, etc., and 2) Page number where the quote supposedly came from. I'll bet you dollars to donuts *no* one can provide that information. And, apparently, Boettner did not provide any of this information in his "scholarly" work. What a surprise.

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OpenDoor said:

Also keep in mind. I posted this in OBOB.
I could have easily posted this in GT where I would probably have gotten a medal...

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I know. People there believe anything that paints the Catholic Church in a poor light. We should have a permanent team to cruise GT and correct the blatant errors which the good Christians there propogate.

OpenDoor said:

Also keep in mind. I posted this in OBOB.
I could have easily posted this in GT where I would probably have gotten a medal...

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No doubt....GT would have eaten this up.
Thanks for bringing it here for clarification.

OpenDoor said:

Loraine Boettner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Presbyterian.

And?

I. THE HIERARCHICAL CONSTITUTION OF THE CHURCH
Why the ecclesial ministry?
874 Christ is himself the source of ministry in the Church. He instituted the Church. He gave her authority and mission, orientation and goal:

In order to shepherd the People of God and to increase its numbers without cease, Christ the Lord set up in his Church a variety of offices which aim at the good of the whole body. The holders of office, who are invested with a sacred power, are, in fact, dedicated to promoting the interests of their brethren, so that all who belong to the People of God . . . may attain to salvation.389
875 "How are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? And how can men preach unless they are sent?"390 No one - no individual and no community - can proclaim the Gospel to himself: "Faith comes from what is heard."391 No one can give himself the mandate and the mission to proclaim the Gospel. The one sent by the Lord does not speak and act on his own authority, but by virtue of Christ's authority; not as a member of the community, but speaking to it in the name of Christ. No one can bestow grace on himself; it must be given and offered. This fact presupposes ministers of grace, authorized and empowered by Christ. From him, bishops and priests receive the mission and faculty ("the sacred power") to act in persona Christi Capitis; deacons receive the strength to serve the people of God in the diaconia of liturgy, word and charity, in communion with the bishop and his presbyterate. The ministry in which Christ's emissaries do and give by God's grace what they cannot do and give by their own powers, is called a "sacrament" by the Church's tradition. Indeed, the ministry of the Church is conferred by a special sacrament.
876 Intrinsically linked to the sacramental nature of ecclesial ministry is its character as service. Entirely dependent on Christ who gives mission and authority, ministers are truly "slaves of Christ,"392 in the image of him who freely took "the form of a slave" for us.393 Because the word and grace of which they are ministers are not their own, but are given to them by Christ for the sake of others, they must freely become the slaves of all.394
877 Likewise, it belongs to the sacramental nature of ecclesial ministry that it have a collegial character. In fact, from the beginning of his ministry, the Lord Jesus instituted the Twelve as "the seeds of the new Israel and the beginning of the sacred hierarchy."395 Chosen together, they were also sent out together, and their fraternal unity would be at the service of the fraternal communion of all the faithful: they would reflect and witness to the communion of the divine persons.396 For this reason every bishop exercises his ministry from within the episcopal college, in communion with the bishop of Rome, the successor of St. Peter and head of the college. So also priests exercise their ministry from within the presbyterium of the diocese, under the direction of their bishop.
878 Finally, it belongs to the sacramental nature of ecclesial ministry that it have a personal character. Although Christ's ministers act in communion with one another, they also always act in a personal way. Each one is called personally: "You, follow me"397 in order to be a personal witness within the common mission, to bear personal responsibility before him who gives the mission, acting "in his person" and for other persons: "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit . . ."; "I absolve you . . . ."
879 Sacramental ministry in the Church, then, is a service exercised in the name of Christ. It has a personal character and a collegial form. This is evidenced by the bonds between the episcopal college and its head, the successor of St. Peter, and in the relationship between the bishop's pastoral responsibility for his particular church and the common solicitude of the episcopal college for the universal Church.
The episcopal college and its head, the Pope
880 When Christ instituted the Twelve, "he constituted [them] in the form of a college or permanent assembly, at the head of which he placed Peter, chosen from among them."398 Just as "by the Lord's institution, St. Peter and the rest of the apostles constitute a single apostolic college, so in like fashion the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, and the bishops, the successors of the apostles, are related with and united to one another."399
881 The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the "rock" of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock.400 "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head."401 This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church's very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.
882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403
883 "The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, as its head." As such, this college has "supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff."404
884 "The college of bishops exercises power over the universal Church in a solemn manner in an ecumenical council."405 But "there never is an ecumenical council which is not confirmed or at least recognized as such by Peter's successor."406
885 "This college, in so far as it is composed of many members, is the expression of the variety and universality of the People of God; and of the unity of the flock of Christ, in so far as it is assembled under one head."407
886 "The individual bishops are the visible source and foundation of unity in their own particular Churches."408 As such, they "exercise their pastoral office over the portion of the People of God assigned to them,"409 assisted by priests and deacons. But, as a member of the episcopal college, each bishop shares in the concern for all the Churches.410 The bishops exercise this care first "by ruling well their own Churches as portions of the universal Church," and so contributing "to the welfare of the whole Mystical Body, which, from another point of view, is a corporate body of Churches."411 They extend it especially to the poor,412 to those persecuted for the faith, as well as to missionaries who are working throughout the world.
887 Neighboring particular Churches who share the same culture form ecclesiastical provinces or larger groupings called patriarchates or regions.413 The bishops of these groupings can meet in synods or provincial councils. "In a like fashion, the episcopal conferences at the present time are in a position to contribute in many and fruitful ways to the concrete realization of the collegiate spirit."414
* The teaching office
888 Bishops, with priests as co-workers, have as their first task "to preach the Gospel of God to all men," in keeping with the Lord's command.415 They are "heralds of faith, who draw new disciples to Christ; they are authentic teachers" of the apostolic faith "endowed with the authority of Christ."416
889 In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a "supernatural sense of faith" the People of God, under the guidance of the Church's living Magisterium, "unfailingly adheres to this faith."417
890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:
891 "The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421
892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a "definitive manner," they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent"422 which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.



Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 4