New Covenant

[Mike2000]

When I first became a member here over the summer, I started reading a thread titled "New Covenant". There was a lot of information in there about how the old covenant with the jews was completed and how the new covenant was started with the church (christians, the new Israel). Unfortunately I haven't been able to find this thread since it was so old.

I would like to start a thread on this so I can find the answers.

I was told by most christians I have spoken to, except for a couple zionists, that God made the new covenant with the church (christians, the new Israel). I was also told that the old covenant was completed, I forget how, I think it may have had something to do with the coming of Jesus.

A couple people on this forum have told me recently that the old covenant with the jews is still on-going.

Can someone please enlighten me on these issues?

 

[Justme]

Hi MIke,

I would like to watch this thred unfold. It will be interesting to see how people extend the Old COvenant.

Hebrews 8 is what I recall as explaining the start of the new covenant, this verse in particular:

6But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

Justme

 

[YahwehLove]

Gal 3:24 Therefore the law has become our custodian, leading us to Christ, so that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian


Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Col 2:14 having blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and He has taken it out of the midst, nailing it to the cross.


For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and who destroyed the dividing wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, putting to death the enmity in Himself.
(Eph 2:14-16)


Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant which I shall covenant with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind, and I shall inscribe them upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Heb 8:11 And by no means will they teach each one his fellow citizen, and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I shall by no means remember anymore."
Heb 8:13 By the saying "new ," He has made the first obsolete. And the one becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish.

just a bit to start. Im talkin IM with my lady friend so it will be slow

 

[YahwehLove]

Mat 26:28 for this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many, for the forgiveness of sins.

Luk 22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

as for the nation of Israel, they are temporarily blinded for unbelief

For I do not desire you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
(Rom 11:25)

You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Well said. By unbelief they were broken off, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear.

For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps He may not spare you either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God: upon those that fell, severity; but upon you, kindness, if you continue in His kindness.

Otherwise you also shall be cut off. And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, shall be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
(Rom 11:19-23)

Read Romans 11 if you can.


whoever told you that the old covenant is still effective is incorrect.
The law and the prophets ended with Johns coming out of the wilderness preaching baptism for the remissoin of sin.

The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone enters forcibly into it.
(Luk 16:16)


John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
(Mar 1:4)

 

[Mike2000]

Heb 8:13 By the saying "new ," He has made the first obsolete. And the one becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish.

That's one of the things I remember hearing in that other thread. By making the New Covenant, God has made the Old Covenant obsolete.

 

[Mike2000]

whoever told you that the old covenant is still effective is incorrect.
The law and the prophets ended with Johns coming out of the wilderness preaching baptism for the remissoin of sin.

That's what I thought.

 

[Judge158]

In Hebrews it calls Jesus a priest in the order of Malchezidek, better than before. He is a priest not from Levi. It also says he is "better" than what was before. But Jesus himself says that he has not come to eliminate the old covenant, but simply to complete it. my view is not so much that the old covenant is gone, thrown out, but instead it is revised. Jesus "fixed" it. thats my view at least.

 

[Mike2000]

In Hebrews it calls Jesus a priest in the order of Malchezidek, better than before. He is a priest not from Levi. It also says he is "better" than what was before. But Jesus himself says that he has not come to eliminate the old covenant, but simply to complete it.

I've heard this. The old covenant was completed with the arrival of Jesus. Which chapter in Hebrews can I find this, or what book, if it's in another book?

my view is not so much that the old covenant is gone, thrown out, but instead it is revised. Jesus "fixed" it. thats my view at least.

If the old covenant has been completed and replaced with the new covenant, wouldn't that make the old covenant obsolete or invalid?

If it has been completed, how can it still be on-going?

 

[visionary]

When you take the old covenant and look for Jesus and what exactly did He replace and do better with....

You have
1) the Melchesdek priesthood replacement for the old Levi priesthood
2) the earthly temple replaced with the Heavenly temple
3) Jesus, as our High Preist ministrying in the Heavenly temple on our behalf
4) The Lamb of God, Jesus, sacrificed one for all, for our sins.

Acts 13:38 Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

There are things that nature has not changed, that God has not changed, so how can the covenant on those subjects be changed.

Things that have not changed are

Dietary laws...since the animals have not changed
Niddah; Tumah; Tzara'at laws...since the human body has not changed
BLASPHEMY....since God has not changed
The Ten Commandments - Since God's Kingdom has not changed
AGRICULTURE....since for the most part plants have not changed

Nor do you find any of these a subject of discourse on how they are changed in the new testament.

We know that there is no theocracy from which God can reign on earth. SO all laws of God in the Old Covenant that ruled on that subject can not really apply, but that does not change the fact that we should study to learn how God thinks about the subject matter. For example:

AGRICULTURE...see any good advise in these...

Reap not a whole field without leaving corners for poor
Not to gather ears of grain that fell during harvesting
Not to gather the misformed clusters of grapes
Not to gather single fallen grapes during the vintage
Not to return for a forgotten sheaf
Not to sow diverse kinds of seed in one field, kalayim
Not to sow grain or vegetables in a vineyard
Not to crossbreed animals of different species
Work not with two different kinds of animals together
Muzzle not animal working field to prevent from eating
Not to cultivate the soil in the 7th year, shemittah
Not to prune the trees in the 7th year
Reap not self-grown plant in 7th year as ordinary year
Gather not self-grown fruit in 7th yr. as ordinary year
Not to till the earth or prune trees in Jubilee year
Reap not aftergrowths of Jubilee year as ordinary year
Not to gather fruit in Jubilee year as in ordinary year
Sell not one's Eretz Yisrael land holdings permanently
Not to sell/change the open lands of the Levites
Not to leave the Levites without support

How many of these do you see...that you could not justify from the law of Moses?

Jubilee related laws I can see, can not be keep since we know not the time of the Jubilee...but then it had not been kept since before Babylon.

What I am getting at is there is good advise in the covenant that I believe Jesus wanted us to understand in the spirit of love for God and man and to obey in that same spirit. Not saying that many people go out and harvest the grain left over...even though the farmers will admit that they do not get all the grain of the harvest, and it is available for those who want it.

 

[Judge158]

You asked for this....

MT5:17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.
MT5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.

now you can interpret it as until the end of the earth, it shall not pass away...or you can look at...
JN19:28After this Jesus, knowing that all things are now finished, that the scripture might be accomplished, saith, I thirst.

and view the death of Jesus as making the law pass away...this is where personal interpretation of the scriptures comes in....

 

[skb]

Think about the law this way....

Sure we are not under the law... But it remains.. It has purpose...

The law is a shadow of Gods truth, not "The Truth".

Read where Jesus taught about the law. How he talked about the Ten Commandments. "You heard it said of old time... "Thou shall not kill" BUT I tell you....

That's the law and the fuller truth. The law pointed to the truth. There is great wisdom in the law if you study it and use it lawfully... One on my obscure favorites is unequally yoked. It appears in both Testaments.

In the OT is was a law or rule that you show not plow with an Ox and a "mule" in the same yoke. It was a law, a saying, a rule that helped them understand the problems with being unequally yoked. Picture a large powerful Ox and a small mule joined together and trying to plow. No way will the job get done very effeciently. The rows will be crooked and possibly the yoke will end up broken. The Ox will dominate and lead the mule every which way.

This concept is brought out agian in the NT about believers being unequally yoked with un-believers. It won't work out well. It's enough that they would make it justified to divorce. That's pretty heavy seeing how God see's the marraige bond.

This same wisdom can be applied to countless scenarios, from rowing a boat to running a business.

Gods Word is full of wisdom like this. Wisdom that we may not bind us but still remains as a guide and lamp to our feet.

So how does this relate to a New Covenant? There are several Covenants in the Bible not just the old and new. But Gods Covenant with Abraham which grew through Moses and Gods Covenant with US through Jesus are the major ones.

The Old was related to the possession of the promised land. We don't live in the Promised Land and God tore down Jerusalem and the Tabernacle so that not one stone remains upon another. He did it for a reason. He will do it again upon Jesus' return.

Men have always been saved through Gods Grace and mercy. It has not changed. But Jesus is the way He has given to us. Our covenant is for us and for today, it is the only path available now to heaven.

 

[YahwehLove]

I've heard this. The old covenant was completed with the arrival of Jesus. Which chapter in Hebrews can I find this, or what book, if it's in another book?


If the old covenant has been completed and replaced with the new covenant, wouldn't that make the old covenant obsolete or invalid?

If it has been completed, how can it still be on-going?

exactly.
Jesus didnt toss out the Law, He just ended that covenant.
He fulfilled the requirements of the Law.

Paul said the law is good.
There is a moral part of the law that is always in effect.
But when the Hebrews broke that law and sinned, sacrifice was required.
Jesus paid that sacrifice once for all.
Now if we sin, we simply ask with repentant heart for forgiveness and God forgives.
We dont have to follow all of those ordinances to be pleasing to Him now