ddub85 said:
Which covenant are we under?
I would argue that we're under the Old Covenant based upon the fact that Gentiles were included in the Old Covenant (Gen. 12:3, reiterated by Paul in Gal 3:8), and the fact that Gentiles aren't ever included in the New Covenant.
The one thing that I have learned about studying the Scriptures is to
never read future revelation into the period I am studying. Genesis 12:1-3 must be studied in the context in which it was written. Galatians 3:8 is written from hindsight under inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
In Genesis 11 we have God setting the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Babel. In Genesis 12 we have God raising up Abram, and made with him an unconditional promise (covenant). That promise was that through his seed (Israel) all the families (nations) of the earth would be blessed.
As time went on, God's promise/covenant with Abram never changed, but conditions were added to it. Therefore anyone that wanted to receive the blessings of that covenant had to comply with added conditions.
Circumcision was added, and God changed the name of Aabram to Abraham, as he became a "Jew in the flesh."
Keeping the sabbath, and living under the Laws of Moses were additional requirements. All the Laws that Moses worte down (613) contain the Civil, Moral and Ceremonial Laws that an Israelite must do by Faith.
If Israel would keep all the requirements of the covenants, then the children of Israel would be blessed and become "a kingdom of priests and an holy nation" (Exodus 19:6).
If Israel, as a nation, would have keep God's covenants, then God would bless her unmeasurabely. The Gentile would see how they were being blessed, and inquire of the Jews how they obtained their blessings. They were to be "the light" to the Gentiles that would lead them to thier God.
Now the Covenant to Abram/Abraham was not to included the Gentiles, they are in a "set aside" condition. If they wanted to receive the blessings that God promised Israel, then that Gentile had to become a Jew (proselyte). Therefore, we cannot say that the Gentiles were included in the covenants that God made with Israel.
From what I have said above, it should be obvious that I do not see the Gentiles covered under the Old Covenant. For a Gentile to receive the blessings of the OC, they had to become Jews (proselytes.)
ddub85 said:
I know that I'm SURELY in the minority on this thought, but I'd like to hear your input and corrections on the matter. I think it's one of the main reasons we can't agree on so many topics, from Cov. Theo. vs. Disp., to pre, mid, and post-trib. thoughts. If we can correct this problem, I believe we can connect in a lot of different areas that are now splitting us apart. But if I'm totally wrong on the matter, it should be easy to refute what I'm saying.
What are your thoughts?
God Bless!
Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 tell us with whom the New Covenant is to be made with. It is to be with the same ones that the Old Covenant was given.
The New Covenant went into effect on the Day of Pentecost. It was a Jewish feast day and there were only Jews and proselytes present. Israel, as a nation, was still not in a "set aside" condition, and the Law and the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom" was still in effect. The Body of Christ, the Church for today, is still future revelation to Paul who wasn't even saved at this time.
Yes, I do believe that the New Covenant went into effect at this time, and it was still with the ones mentioned in Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8. However, when God set the nation of Israel aside, after the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7, the New Covenant was placed on hold. God ceased (temporarily) to deal with Israel as His favorite people.
We find that the Gentiles were set aside at the Tower of Babel, in Genesis 11, and that Israel was set aside (temporarily) as God shows Peter in Acts 10, and Paul says in Romans 11:7-12.
"For God concluded them all (Jew and Gentiles) in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all" (Romans 11:32).
With the setting aside of Israel, and the interruption of the New Covenant, how is Israel to be a blessing to the nations, as promised Abram back in Genesis 12?
With the setting aside of both the Jews and Gentiles, it looks like the world is in really bad shape. Looks like satan is not in control of the universe, and he will have his way. He even put the One who was to save the world from their sins on the Cross of Calvary.
Ah, but we have a God who was and is "all knowing." He knew the beginning from the end even before the universe was created. He knew of Lucifiers plan to usurp His authority, and that man would fall into sin.
Therefore, God devised a plan that would not only save man from their sins, but would also defeat satan. God kept this plan a secret, and it cannot be found in OT prophesy. It "was kept secret since the world began." It cannot be found in the OT or in the Covenants. It was revealed to the Apostle Paul after the setting aside of the nation of Israel
Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 2:7-8 "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hiden wisdom, which God ordained before the world (creation) unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory."
Had man know God's secret plan, then satan would have know it also, and would have "worked like the devil" to keep Jesus from the Cross. The Cross was God plan for salvation of all mankind, and seal the doom of satan. What an awesome God we have.
The Chruch today, the Body of Christ, is not in fulfillment of any Old or New Covenants of prophesy. It is the fulfillment of God's eternal plan that he had kept secret since the world began.
At the close of this dispensation of grace (which Paul ushered in), the Chruch, the Body of Christ will have been raptured to heaven, and God will again deal with Israel as His favorite nation, and all the OT promises/covenants will be fulfilled.
Hope this is helpful.
God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!.
: Doesn't jesus become the Sceptre of Israel instead of Judah? That is what confuses me.
