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New Bible study-fellowship

kingdom-heir

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I have spent many hours trying to find a solution to the problem of divisions in the body of Christ. I believe I have the answer; of course it really is no solution of mine, what is it? Scriptures, that tell us very clearly how to live. I would really appreciate if someone in the Chehalis,WA. area would contact me and lets talk about forming a Bible study-fellowship.

I have written four pages, that several Christians have reviewed and are in agreement. Anyone that would like a copy, go to my profile and give me your e-mail so I can send it to you via attachment.

True Christians need to leave the IRS, State churches and form house assemblies (not churches) and start practicing True Christianity the way it was to begin with. People in the world need to see real Christians, not wimpy wannabes
 
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pixiponk

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That sounds like something I was thinking about lots recsently. I keep trying to go back to church. Feels wrong and is now very impracticle. (walking 3 miles each way to nearest church with a baby in winter) There are few houses near me and those that are close have big shiney cars and drive off to their churches every Sunday. Am at a loss other than coming on here as to how I get Christian fellowship and teaching. God has implied there maybe a plan so I'm happy to hang around for a bit, but am starting to think I may need to start somthing myself. How does one do that when I don't know anyone apart from the milk man? :confused:(I not asking you really. Him above has it in hand I believe!
 
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Jamey

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I think one mistake ppl make about home churches or simple church is that they try to imitate the form of the corporate church. I was involved in a small home church that was around for 10 years and only had 3 members. They were doing "church" but not doing "fellowship". Church is not a form, a ceremony or anything like that. Church is a ppl. And ppl need to fellowship. Example is last night. We went to a persons house and watched the football game. All of us were believers, the only thing we had in common was Christ. But we fellowshipped. We ate together, talked and joked and laughed. Yes worship is important, but so is fellowship. Try to think in those terms.
J.
 
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I've had similar frustrations. My advice (that I'm still trying to grasp myself) is to resist the urge to try to accomplish spiritual ends using fleshly means. What I mean is, don't try to provoke people's will or emotions, don't try to make your gatherings more appealling to the flesh. Seek the Lord with all your heart through prayer and He will lead you. It takes self-sacrifice, but if you're willing to obey, he will direct you. Only he is able to change hearts and move in people's spirits. If we attempt to use human means to reach what we think the Church should be we'll be just as useless to God as those lost in dead institutional religion. Hope this helps.

-Theophilus
 
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- DRA -

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I have spent many hours trying to find a solution to the problem of divisions in the body of Christ. I believe I have the answer; of course it really is no solution of mine, what is it? Scriptures, that tell us very clearly how to live. I would really appreciate if someone in the Chehalis,WA. area would contact me and lets talk about forming a Bible study-fellowship.

I have written four pages, that several Christians have reviewed and are in agreement. Anyone that would like a copy, go to my profile and drop me an e-mail so I can send it to you via attachment.

True Christians need to leave the IRS, State churches and form house assemblies (not churches) and start practicing True Christianity the way it was to begin with. People in the world need to see real Christians, not wimpy wannabes

This is an interesting proposition ...

In essence, as I understand it, the proposition before us is that divisions within the Lord's church can be resolved by forming house assemblies - somehow not to be confused with what most of us would call a church. And, once we become a part of a house assembly, we can start practicing "True Christianity" and become "real Christians, not wimpy wannabes."

Hmmm. I certainly want to obey God, please Him, and one day go to be with Him for all eternity in heaven. So, I certainly am one of those "wannabes" to which you refer.

However, I find a different solution for division among God's people who are members of the body of Christ. Take the division that existed in the church (house assembly, as you would call it) at Corinth in 1 Cor. 1:10-17. The problem is identified and the "cure" is given. If, as you suggest, house "assemblies" solve the problem of division among Christians, then it will solve this problem. Let's note a quote from your previous comments: "True Christians need to ... form house assemblies (not churches) and start practicing True Christianity the way it was to begin with." Now back to the church in Corinth: the division in that church was during the time period you describe as "to begin with" -- in the days of the house assemblies. That makes the church at Corinth a house assembly. Therefore, how could a house assembly resolve division, when division obviously occurred in the house assembly setting? Do you see the problem with this reasoning that I see?

Now, back to 1 Corinthians chapter 1. The division in Corinth was based on different preacher baptizing different members. Such division was unjustified, because they were baptized in the name of the Lord -- not in the name of any preacher. This was a basis for unity -- not division. Division over such things is caused by a "carnal" mindset (see 3:1,4). The remedy for the division? Be united based by the common baptism in the name of the Lord, and be spiritually minded.

With these things in mind, I struggle to see the scriptural basis for your proposition. Perhaps you can elaborate more.

As for the word "wimpy," please allow me to simply state it is inflammatory and totally unnecessary. If it indeed is true that those of us who are members of the church -- versus a house assembly -- are indeed wimps, then it would be more beneficial to help strengthen us in the faith (i.e., edify us) by "speaking as the oracles of God" per 1 Peter 4:11a.

:idea:
 
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- DRA -

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I think one mistake ppl make about home churches or simple church is that they try to imitate the form of the corporate church. I was involved in a small home church that was around for 10 years and only had 3 members. They were doing "church" but not doing "fellowship". Church is not a form, a ceremony or anything like that. Church is a ppl. And ppl need to fellowship. Example is last night. We went to a persons house and watched the football game. All of us were believers, the only thing we had in common was Christ. But we fellowshipped. We ate together, talked and joked and laughed. Yes worship is important, but so is fellowship. Try to think in those terms.
J.

Not sure I understand the basis for this usage of the word "fellowship." I understand how the word is commonly used today, but I have to wonder if this is the correct way the word is used in the New Testament. Perhaps you can elaborate.
 
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Jamey

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Dra,
Maybe I am the one confused. I take away from scripture that fellowship was not just worshipping God together, but enjoying each other's company, taking an intrest in each other and their problems, joys, setbacks and victories. Something family members do when they are together. The house church I was briefly a part of did not do such things. We had an opening prayer, songs were sang to a video, a lesson was taught, heavy prayer and then "see you next Thursday". While all those are great, fellowship is not just worshipping God in the "traditional" since.
Atleast not IMHO.
I"m also not sure what you mean by "us who are members of the church -- versus a house assembly". Again I may misinterpret what you posted but I thought church was a people not a place.
 
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- DRA -

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Dra,
Maybe I am the one confused. I take away from scripture that fellowship was not just worshipping God together, but enjoying each other's company, taking an intrest in each other and their problems, joys, setbacks and victories. Something family members do when they are together. The house church I was briefly a part of did not do such things. We had an opening prayer, songs were sang to a video, a lesson was taught, heavy prayer and then "see you next Thursday". While all those are great, fellowship is not just worshipping God in the "traditional" since.
Atleast not IMHO.
I"m also not sure what you mean by "us who are members of the church -- versus a house assembly". Again I may misinterpret what you posted but I thought church was a people not a place.

The Koine Greek word for "fellowship" is "koinonia." In the KJV New Testament, koinonia appears 20x ( see http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2842&version=kjv ). Perhaps you help me understand how your understanding of the word is derived from the passages in which it appears.

"Us who are members of the church -- versus a house assembly" was used because of the perceived perception the word "assembly" was being used to designate a difference from the word "church." Let's note an excerpt from one of your posts: ""True Christians need to ... form house assemblies (not churches)." It certainly seems as if you are trying to leave us with the impression house assemblies and churches are two different things. Am I mistaken?

"Church" (the Greek word "ekklesia") can be used to refer to the called-out of God (Matthew 16:18), an assembly for a common purpose - the assembly in Acts 19:32, and the assembly of the called-out of God (1 Cor. 14:19).

I have a few questions:
1.) Why were songs sang to a video? What exactly does that mean?
2.) It seems the house church you described meet only on Thursdays, or did it also meet on Sundays?
3.) What is meant by "heavy prayer?"
 
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Jamey

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Dra,
I'll get back to you about what I posted on the "true christians need to....form a house assemblies". When I have time I'll check in what context I was talking about.
I wanted to answer your questions.
question #1. It was a video that played a contemporary worship song, one common on the radio, with the words scrolled across the screen and the background being some lanscape. Same stuff you see in some denominational worship services.

question #2. It met only on Thursdays. The "leader" whose house we met was off on Fridays so it was easier for him. He didn't want to have service on Sunday to limit others from not worshipping in a "home church".

question #3. What I meant was he would turn down the lights, we all fall on our face and pray, most of the time in silence for around 30 min.

The leader eventually built a large addition to his home to facilitate more ppl, which from what I understand has not yet arrived. My wife and I left before the project was finished.

I will be back more later with an answer to my post.

J.
 
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- DRA -

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Dra,
I'll get back to you about what I posted on the "true christians need to....form a house assemblies". When I have time I'll check in what context I was talking about.
I wanted to answer your questions.
question #1. It was a video that played a contemporary worship song, one common on the radio, with the words scrolled across the screen and the background being some lanscape. Same stuff you see in some denominational worship services.

question #2. It met only on Thursdays. The "leader" whose house we met was off on Fridays so it was easier for him. He didn't want to have service on Sunday to limit others from not worshipping in a "home church".

question #3. What I meant was he would turn down the lights, we all fall on our face and pray, most of the time in silence for around 30 min.

The leader eventually built a large addition to his home to facilitate more ppl, which from what I understand has not yet arrived. My wife and I left before the project was finished.

I will be back more later with an answer to my post.

J.

No problem. Take your time. Study/be diligent per 2 Timothy 2:15. I certainly hope I didn't take your statement out of context. I don't believe I did, but you would know best what you were thinking.

Perhaps later we can also discuss why singing and praying are more beneficial by "enhancements," like the visual aids you describe (landscape backgrounds for the words to a spiritual song, dimming the lights, etc.).

And, perhaps we can discuss the "advantages" (?) of meeting on Thursday versus Sunday (the first day of the week - Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 16:1-2).
 
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Jamey

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Dra,
I do mean there is a difference between assembly and church. They are 2 different words/meanings. Church is a group of ppl. You are right, they are the "called out ones". Assembly is what the Church does together. Not all assemblies are church assemblies. People can't go to church, they are the church. Believers can assemble with non-believers, but this isn't "church".
As far as the issues about meeting on Thursday instead of Sunday, I was against that and still am. We are to meet on the first day of the week to partake in the Lord's supper. Meeting on other days are fine, but the first day cannot be replaced with another day.
I was against the videos. I'm against music in general.
I do hold to the Restoration movement's beliefs.
But here is my question.
Do you think that the RM didn't go far enough? I believe in the NT Church and that we should get back to that form of worship/fellowship. But where I think we fall into a problem is having buildings, pulpits, auditorium style worship. There is no fellowship looking at the back of someone's head. The NT model was house to house.

What are your feelings on the subject?
J.
 
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- DRA -

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Dra,
I do mean there is a difference between assembly and church. They are 2 different words/meanings. Church is a group of ppl. You are right, they are the "called out ones". Assembly is what the Church does together. Not all assemblies are church assemblies. People can't go to church, they are the church. Believers can assemble with non-believers, but this isn't "church".
As far as the issues about meeting on Thursday instead of Sunday, I was against that and still am. We are to meet on the first day of the week to partake in the Lord's supper. Meeting on other days are fine, but the first day cannot be replaced with another day.
I was against the videos. I'm against music in general.
I do hold to the Restoration movement's beliefs.
But here is my question.
Do you think that the RM didn't go far enough? I believe in the NT Church and that we should get back to that form of worship/fellowship. But where I think we fall into a problem is having buildings, pulpits, auditorium style worship. There is no fellowship looking at the back of someone's head. The NT model was house to house.

What are your feelings on the subject?
J.

Good. It appears we have some common ground on which we stand.

Let's consider things from a scriptural perspective. Assembling is commanded (Hebrews 10:25a). No specifics are given concerning the place or facility. Therefore, the command is generic. So, we have to decide what is best for the local church. This is where expediencies become a consideration (note 1 Cor. 6:12 in the KJV). Expediencies help us do what is authorized. Either the local church meets outdoors and is susceptible to the weather, insects, etc., or we meet indoors with some protection from those things. And, if we choose to meet indoors, do we use someone's house, rent a building, or build a building? Obviously, choices have to be made. And, we want to be wise stewards with the money contributed to the Lord's work. The size of the group makes a difference. Obviously, a group of 100 can't meet in a small house. A larger facility would seem to be the far better choice. Anyway, I hope these few comments gives a sense for the decisions that must be made with the best interests of the church in mind.

As for pulpits and/or auditoriums, teaching is definitely authorized. Therefore, we want to give the teacher the things that will be helpful in teaching the gospel of Christ. As a teacher, I know that having a place to lay my Bible, lesson/study notes, and reference materials is very helpful. And, after having feet problems for the past 5 years or so, I definitely can benefit from a place to sit down. Decisions have to be made about what is cost effective and its expected life with use. Chairs are a possibility, as are pews. For sure, we can't scripturally specify that someone can't use pews. God gave no such commandment. Rather, we realize that since God expects us to assemble, and NO specifics are given concerning the type of facility, we have to make choices about the facility we utilize and what basic human needs we supply e.g., water, restroom). Make any sense?

The church I attend utilizes an auditorium. Personally, I don't view myself as having fellowship with the back of the head of the person sitting in front of me. Rather, our fellowship is in our mutual respect for the Lord, our respect for His word, our willingness to give diligence to it, and our efforts to apply it to our lives. The seating arrangement is one commonly used so all in attendance can face the speaker ... focusing our attention on the speaker as the message is presented.

Anyway, that's my 2-cents worth. :)
 
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Jamey

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Dra,
I also see that we have a lot in common. But on some subjects we will have to agree to disagree.
On the subject of good stewardship, I don’t see how paying for a building, for a pulpit minister and a youth minister is being a good steward. In our church body that is 60% of our budget. I have been to some congregations that don’t have paid ministers so I know that works.

On the subject of fellowshipping together, corporate worship (where everyone is taught facing a speaker) is fine. But if the majority of fellowship time during the week is made up of sitting listening to a teacher, I don’t see that being biblical.

On the subject of expediency, the NT Church was able to change the world by going house to house. You are right, 100 people cannot fit into a house. But then again can 100 people have the intimacy, discipleship, and accountability of a group of say 12-20?
I feel that those are the things that are truly lacking in the Lord’s Church today.

The Church today seems to lack the power of the first century Church. One of the problems, I feel, is that we walked away for the first century model. Now I am making a blanket statement. Maybe not all church bodies are like that, just like not all simple churches are biblical. But on the whole, the institutional church seems to fall away from the standard the apostles has set for us. Not just the way we celebrate the Lord’s Supper or how we sing to our Lord. It is in the heart of our fellowship as family members. We don’t meet with our earthly families the same way as we meet with our heavenly family.

A great website to go to is Mike Indest’s site, Fellowship of Believers. I can’t post sites yet since my post count is down. But his archived radio programs are excellent. He is the first person who has shown how simple church is biblical. Most of the sites out there seem to be part of the emergent church movement that I find is un-biblical in their theology. Google him if you are interested and click on his radio archive (they are at the bottom of the page, the first set of programs are from a convention that I haven’t checked out yet). I think you will find it very interesting.

Your brother in Christ,
Jamey
 
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- DRA -

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Dra,
I also see that we have a lot in common. But on some subjects we will have to agree to disagree.
On the subject of good stewardship, I don’t see how paying for a building, for a pulpit minister and a youth minister is being a good steward. In our church body that is 60% of our budget. I have been to some congregations that don’t have paid ministers so I know that works.

On the subject of fellowshipping together, corporate worship (where everyone is taught facing a speaker) is fine. But if the majority of fellowship time during the week is made up of sitting listening to a teacher, I don’t see that being biblical.

On the subject of expediency, the NT Church was able to change the world by going house to house. You are right, 100 people cannot fit into a house. But then again can 100 people have the intimacy, discipleship, and accountability of a group of say 12-20?
I feel that those are the things that are truly lacking in the Lord’s Church today.

The Church today seems to lack the power of the first century Church. One of the problems, I feel, is that we walked away for the first century model. Now I am making a blanket statement. Maybe not all church bodies are like that, just like not all simple churches are biblical. But on the whole, the institutional church seems to fall away from the standard the apostles has set for us. Not just the way we celebrate the Lord’s Supper or how we sing to our Lord. It is in the heart of our fellowship as family members. We don’t meet with our earthly families the same way as we meet with our heavenly family.

A great website to go to is Mike Indest’s site, Fellowship of Believers. I can’t post sites yet since my post count is down. But his archived radio programs are excellent. He is the first person who has shown how simple church is biblical. Most of the sites out there seem to be part of the emergent church movement that I find is un-biblical in their theology. Google him if you are interested and click on his radio archive (they are at the bottom of the page, the first set of programs are from a convention that I haven’t checked out yet). I think you will find it very interesting.

Your brother in Christ,
Jamey

Just a few quick thoughts ...

Paying for a church building may NOT be good stewardship. It depends on the economics of buying versus renting or leasing or using someone's home to meet in (if a suitable size). The problem comes with declaring that any local church that buys a building for the church to meet in is not being a good steward. That step takes it outside of the realm of judgment into the realm of condemnation. For sure, I can't find sufficient scriptural evidence to support such reasoning.

As for paying someone to devote their time to preaching the gospel instead of working a secular job to support their family, if doing such is being a bad steward, then the apostle Paul was certainly in error when he "robbed" churches in 2 Corinthians 11:8 (KJV).

As for a youth minister, sounds like a liberal concept to me.

Please direct me to the passage(s) that set the scriptural basis for body positioning in fellowship.

I have known both large churches that were warm, friendly, and worked closely with each other. On the other hand, I have known small churches that were cold, unfriendly, and did NOT play well with others. Personally, I believe this is one of those case where size doesn't necessarily matter.

Appreciate the thought of the website. However, my primary interest is understanding your scriptural authority for what you believe.
 
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kingdom-heir

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This is an interesting proposition ...

In essence, as I understand it, the proposition before us is that divisions within the Lord's church can be resolved by forming house assemblies - somehow not to be confused with what most of us would call a church. And, once we become a part of a house assembly, we can start practicing "True Christianity" and become "real Christians, not wimpy wannabes."

This is a total misunderstanding and there is nothing in my OP to suggest this conclusion. I made an offer to give my info to anyone interested, and it is still open. :wave:
 
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- DRA -

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This is a total misunderstanding and there is nothing in my OP to suggest this conclusion. I made an offer to give my info to anyone interested, and it is still open. :wave:

Okay ... let's take a second look at the OP and see what it says.

The OP:

"I have spent many hours trying to find a solution to the problem of divisions in the body of Christ. I believe I have the answer; of course it really is no solution of mine, what is it? Scriptures, that tell us very clearly how to live. I would really appreciate if someone in the Chehalis,WA. area would contact me and lets talk about forming a Bible study-fellowship.

I have written four pages, that several Christians have reviewed and are in agreement. Anyone that would like a copy, go to my profile and give me your e-mail so I can send it to you via attachment.

True Christians need to leave the IRS, State churches and form house assemblies (not churches) and start practicing True Christianity the way it was to begin with. People in the world need to see real Christians, not wimpy wannabes"


Now, let's break it down into sections:
1.) "I have spent many hours trying to find a solution to the problem of divisions in the body of Christ." - I understand this to mean a problem has been identified.
2.) "I believe I have the answer" - I understand this to mean you have the answer to the problem you identified.
3.) "of course it really is no solution of mine, what is it? Scriptures, that tell us very clearly how to live." - I understand this to mean your answer is based on Scripture.
4.) "True Christians need to leave the IRS, State churches and form house assemblies (not churches) and start practicing True Christianity the way it was to begin with." - I understand these are the specific scriptural teaches that "true Christians" should be practicing.
5.) "People in the world need to see real Christians, not wimpy wannabes" - I understand this to mean those who are not following your guidance are categorized as "wimpy wannabes" - a highly inflammatory insinuation.

Granted, in the midst of the statements you made an offer to share your study. However, obviously, that isn't all your OP says, is it?
 
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