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They can claim anything they like, but the onus is on them to show why I should take their claim seriously - unless it's just poetic contrarianism.
Like I said, I don't identify with any particular philosophical position; however, I don't see a rational alternative to methodological naturalism for learning about the world, and I see no plausible evidence of the supernatural, but plenty of evidence suggesting that claims of the supernatural have, or can have, natural explanations, so a naturalistic ontogeny suggests itself. But equally, I don't think it's reasonable to make claims of certainty, and though we can posit 'ultimate' explanations like the radical Platonism of Tegmark's 'Mathematical Universe', they're probably beyond the reach of methodological naturalism.
In the absence of evidence, parsimony seems a reasonable precautionary principle to apply. To paraphrase Feynman, "We should not be afraid to admit we don't know, and it's better to have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned".
Whoa, what the heck is going on here?
I hope to insert my snout into this discussion although I suspect you guys know a lot more about this than me. For the present, I will say that I read Chalmers 1996 book and was convinced by it.
What they're doing is challenging the picture of nature that has been dominant in the West for the past 500 years. One of my favorite claims coming out of this school of thought is that the very idea of a law of nature cannot be separated from a deistic conception of reality, and that an atheistic ontology actually requires viewing material substances as having intrinsic natures.
Cartwright might find the find the possibility that causality, like the arrow of time, is emergent at macro-scales, of interest. Her conclusion that the accounts she describes can't make sense of the laws of nature without introducing God would be more interesting if she explained what she means by God, and how it makes sense of anything. As it stands, I don't see how you can make sense of the unexplained with the inexplicable (or unexplained).If you want to see a defense of this particular claim, there's a Cartwright paper on it here.
Which leads to issues of defining reality or 'absolute' reality (anything goes?), and the problem of interaction.... Non-naturalists do not necessarily believe in supernatural events with no natural explanations--the question is whether those natural explanations can be fully grounded in physical reality or entail a non-physical "absolute" reality.
That's why I suggested it as a precautionary principle, rather than a fundamental principle; i.e. within a chosen model or account, "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler"Eh, I find the principle of parsimony dangerous. Nothing simpler than radical idealism.
The pragmatic positions I put forth were meant to be my recap of your justification for telos, as presented in your previous post to me. But I'd like to see evidence or reasoning that points to the reality of telos in non-conscious matter.I think you're looking at it from more of a pragmatic position: what makes for a useful (but ultimately fictional) way of describing the world, for some sort of additional purpose. But Neo-Aristotelians don't say that telos is a useful concept. They say that it's a principle of nature.
What they're doing is challenging the picture of nature that has been dominant in the West for the past 500 years. One of my favorite claims coming out of this school of thought is that the very idea of a law of nature cannot be separated from a deistic conception of reality, and that an atheistic ontology actually requires viewing material substances as having intrinsic natures.
In any case, I would be careful contrasting naturalism to supernaturalism and then saying there's no plausible evidence for the latter. Non-naturalists do not necessarily believe in supernatural events with no natural explanations--the question is whether those natural explanations can be fully grounded in physical reality or entail a non-physical "absolute" reality. I would put any radical Platonism squarely in the non-naturalist camp.
That's why I suggested it as a precautionary principle, rather than a fundamental principle; i.e. within a chosen model or account, "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler"
The pragmatic positions I put forth were meant to be my recap of your justification for telos, as presented in your previous post to me. But I'd like to see evidence or reasoning that points to the reality of telos in non-conscious matter.
Cartwright might find the find the possibility that causality, like the arrow of time, is emergent at macro-scales, of interest. Her conclusion that the accounts she describes can't make sense of the laws of nature without introducing God would be more interesting if she explained what she means by God, and how it makes sense of anything. As it stands, I don't see how you can make sense of the unexplained with the inexplicable (or unexplained).
Which leads to issues of defining reality or 'absolute' reality (anything goes?), and the problem of interaction.
That's why I suggested it as a precautionary principle, rather than a fundamental principle; i.e. within a chosen model or account, "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler"
[quote attribution unclear]
The pragmatic positions I put forth were meant to be my recap of your justification for telos, as presented in your previous post to me. But I'd like to see evidence or reasoning that points to the reality of telos in non-conscious matter.
As it stands I see this sort of telos as another human attempt to project meaning onto the larger world - a world which may altogether lack it, to our great chagrin.
Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts on all this.
Silmarien: Whatever we perceive as reality is first structured by our conscious mind. Therefore that structure is primary to the secondary "material reality out there", which may not exist, at least not in the way that we perceive it. Therefore one can't jump to the next assumption (material reality exists as we perceive it) and then circularly claim that matter is fundamental, and consciousness is the product of the causal interactions between matter. Likewise, it's very presumptuous to then claim that only material exists, and build false dichotomies about lack of evidence for immaterial.
In short, consciousness informs us of reality as a structure, it doesn't necessarily tells us anything beyond our conscious experience. Matter (as we perceive it) may not even exist, or likely doesn't exist. What we observe about "fundamental" from science is that it's not at all like we perceive it. Invoking supernatural as a dialectic of natural can't be made unless we describe the "nature" of natural beyond the structure that's given to natural by our conscious perception.
Therefore, the interaction problem is a non-problem. Supernatural vs natural is a potentially false dichotomy, driven by axiomatic assumption that material is natural. (Projecting) Describing reality as a collection of particles which are responsible for observable attributes of matter... is not "As simple as possible", since there are actually more direct means to simply describe ratios and attributes, which are more useful than claims about models that are being reified by each subsequent generation of physicists.
Your summary here is a bit more Berkeleyan than I am even at my most idealistic, but it works well enough to elucidate the differences here. Though I am actually fine with methodological naturalism and get suspicious when people carelessly mix metaphysics and science. That leads to either pseudoscience or terrible philosophy. Or both.
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What is the hallmark of human thought, and what distinguishes thoughts from material things? Franz Brentano (1838–1917), a German philosopher in the 19th century, answered this question decisively. All thoughts are about something, whereas no material object is inherently “about” anything. This property of aboutness is called intentionality, and intentionality is the hallmark of the mind. Every thought that I have shares the property of aboutness—I think about my vacation, or about politics, or about my family. But no material object is, in itself, “about” anything. A mountain or a rock or a pen lacks aboutness—they are just objects. Only a mind has intentionality, and intentionality is the hallmark of the mind.....
....But to believe that machines can think or that human thought is a kind of computation is a profound error.
Belief in this fundamental error about AI will lead us away from, not toward, the truth about AI. Machines, for example, will never become malevolent and harm mankind.
Men will act with malevolence, using machines, or men will use machines in ways that (unintentionally) harm others
Men can use cars malevolently and carelessly and can thus harm others. But the malevolence and careless is in the man, not in the car.
No.Another interesting series that explores the concept is: https://m.imdb.com/title/tt4122068/
But for my part I am wondering what the connection with the recent AI technological push and the desire of the fallen ones to have bodies to inhabit.
Could it be that the development is simply creating a user interface for a spirit being that will masquerade as a clever computer?
Not really.This misses the mark with what you said previous: "the mind, is what the brain does".
While I agree thoughts are always "about" something, the thoughts themselves are fundamentally physical things. They are neurons firing in the brain. Your own words: the mind is what the brain does. No brain = no mind = no thoughts.
So thoughts are fundamentally materialistic.
Right now, all of your thoughts and memories are webbed in a steady state of quantum entanglement
and there are hundreds of reported cases of near-death experiences where a person can be completely brain dead, that is they have no brain activity at all and yet once they are revived they recall real events that took place while pronounced brain dead, events that are affirmed by credible sources, such as the doctors themselves.
Energy is never destroyed, that's the first law of thermodynamics. Energy is only transferred and contained, which is why there are so many cases of people born without a full brain, even born with virtually no brain at all, but still have a self-awareness & personality.
Yup, that's a pretty good approximation...FrumiousBandersnatch: (Also, forgive for approximation) We don't really have to understand the "true nature of reality" in order to systematically approach what we do perceive as our reality. What we don't perceive as reality seems to be of secondary importance in terms of how our own being is structured, nether it seems to be ontologically consequential. It's the age-old "if the tree falls in the woods..." concept. How would you know that it fell unless you can experience and describe it? After all, we don't first observe the nature of "unseen ultimate reality". We observe reality as we observe it, and then we distill that observation into systematic relationships between observable.
Likewise, we are "we", and have to deal with other minds that we communicate with and compare our perception. The problem is then developing a system that allows us to separate false, or less likely claims from more likely or true. There seems to be no better way than existing methodology of scientific naturalism. It doesn't mean anything that hasn't been consistently observed by this methodological framework doesn't exist. It simply means that unexaminable concepts are not of much value in context of that framework.
Scientific models are merely causal models and not ontological. These are helpful to describe reality by drawing on "schematic analogies" of our level of perception that we can relate to. These are useful as systematic description. Thus, axiomatic assumptions of materialism are useful when we aligning the language of the models to our assumptions about reality.
I agree with most of that - and I don't necessarily require there to be an either/or dichotomy. However, given my initial view (as summarised in your post), I don't see how the other view (belief in the reality of the existence of the ideal-in-context-of-our-reality God) is compatible. I can see the social and emotional utility attending such belief, but the belief in an ill-defined and inexplicable deity itself seems irrational and at odds with the first view. For all that we're good at compartmentalizing and holding conflicting ideas, it doesn't work for me.My View: I don't think that it's the "either - or" type of dichotomy, and that we can speak of these contextually, depending on the questions that we are trying to answer.
Platonism as per Silmarien, and methodological naturalism as per Bandersnatch are answering two different questions and attempting to solve different problems.
If we think of a computer RPG, we can describe the rules of the game as the players play these in the game, or we can describe these in context of perceived author's intent, and imagined concept of the ultimate reality outside of the game. The source code could be hidden from both.
I'm not convinced that the latter is accessible to us beyond faith-based claims one would have to make bets on. I'm not sure that it's relevant. I actually view Christianity not as means to describing ontology, but rather a means to communicate human reality via historically-observed archetypes. It tells us nothing about ontology apart from claims of what God is "most like" when we look in our world. God is an ideal in context of our reality.
So, ultimately we are not pointing "upward" when we are pointing to what God is. We are pointing at human concepts and then say "It's like that, but much much better". Therefore, I'm sure that it's useful to either negate or unify these views. Let science be science, and religion be religion. Both are useful in context of their usefulness. Both idealism and realism are likewise useful in context of each ontological focus.
In terms of this thread, I'm not even sure how you can make either claim about consciousness without describing what consciousness is and how it works.
In terms of the AI, and the whole concept of the Turing test... is that if no one can tell a difference, then what would be the difference?
No doubt; but perhaps she hasn't encountered that particular research. OTOH, perhaps when she says she thinks we can't make sense of science without the notion of causings, she means science above the level at which causality emerges, or that she can't make scientific sense of acausality, or that acausality doesn't make sense as science, or that we apply the notion of causings to it regardless of apparent acausality... it's not clear.Cartwright is a professional philosopher of science who has written extensively about causality. I'm quite certain she's capable of choosing her own interests.
You misunderstand me; I was referring to her conclusion about the accounts she describes (I thought I said that):Cartwright is also an atheist, so I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that she thinks God must be invoked to explain the laws of nature.
OK, if you say so.Neither of which is really a problem. Scholastic philosophy certainly offers the conceptual tools necessary to approach to subject, and it is not really clear that there is an interaction problem at all. Non-naturalism is not exactly substance dualism (and even defenders of substance dualism will say that invoking the interaction problem amounts to begging the question).
Actually, I'm a big fan of intuition - provided it involves areas of sufficient experience and expertise.The whole thing is going to break down into a question of where your intuitions lie. (And I know you don't like intuition, but that doesn't mean it's not playing a role for everyone on every side of these questions.)
Well that's a bit dogmatic don't you think.
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