Need some help with this one.

[meebs]

I dont know if this is the right thread but i'll ask anyway.

OK, a) in genesis God curses Adam and Eve's descendants (us). Because of what they did we are all counted as sinners. This is saying we all have this generational curse, all our forebears sins are accounted to us.

BUT, b) later in the bible (OT) God (says to one of his prophets or kings) that will no longer be the case. If a man is bad and starts worshiping idols and blaspheming God then he has a son, now this son is Good, worships God does not worship idols etc. That man is not blamed for his fathers sins, and so on.

1- Can someone give me the exact verses for these (inc. Genesis!) i think b) is in Kings or something.

2- If b) is correct then we are NOT born in sin? that we are no longer to blame for Adams sin, However we are only accountable for ourselves, our own sin, which we do. (we all still sin, but our kids are not blamed)

3- after reading this, should we go round saying that God punishes for Adams sins?

Thanks for any help, i may be making this as a post somewhere else when i have the answers, making my own conclusions. also may discuss this with a vicar, and need to back it up.

 

[kelco]

Hi jellybrain,

Here are the verses:
Gen 3:3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
Gen 3:4 The serpent said to the woman, "You won't surely die,
Gen 3:5 for God knows that in the day you eat it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Gen 3:6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit of it, and ate; and she gave some to her husband with her, and he ate.
Gen 3:7 Both of their eyes were opened, and they knew that they were naked. They sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Jer 31:29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
Jer 31:30 But everyone shall die for his own iniquity: every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.

IMHO all infants are innocent until the age of accountability (when they are old enough to distinguish right from wrong). We are born with the curse of Adam which is death, so in a way we suffer for Adam's sin.

1Co 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also came through a man. 1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ will all be made alive.

As Jer. 31:29-30 shows, God will not punish us for anyone elses sins but our own. The fact that we stand individualy accountable for our sins is one of the many mercies of God. Death is our punishment for the sin of Adam but the death and resurrection of Jesus has negated that punishment in that He took all our sins and died in our stead and has given us in return the life that He lives which is eternal life.

 

[meebs]

thanx esp. Adams death bit, that makes more sense.

(but i didnt know Adam was supposed to be immortal at first?... )

 

[foreal]

but i didnt know Adam was supposed to be immortal at first?...

Yes there was the tree of life with its fruit and the forbidden fruit (The one they ate) After Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the forbidden tree God put an angel in front of the tree of life so they could not eat it and live forever in sin.

Genesis 3: 22-24
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

 

[ChristianCandy]

I don't see the curse on Adam & Eve as a "generational" curse. It was a permanent curse God placed on them. "Generational" curses only last 3 or 4 generations before they lifted.


However even "generational" curses are no longer around today for the saved because Jesus took those curses upon Himself on the Cross when He died.

And because the curse God placed on Adam & Even & the ground & the serpent was "permanent" curses, there is no getting away from it until we pass from this life into the new one (eternal life).

 

[Nazarite]

If b) is correct then we are NOT born in sin? that we are no longer to blame for Adams sin, However we are only accountable for ourselves, our own sin, which we do. (we all still sin, but our kids are not blamed)

Jelly,

One of the verses I believe you are referencing is found in Exodus.

Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD . And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD , the LORD , the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation" (Exodus 34:5-7 New International Version).​

The other might be found in Ezekiel

Yet you ask, "Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?" Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him (Ezekiel 18:19-20 New International Version).
​

Since the Bible does not contain contradictions, then these verses must be in harmony. This is what I would suggest. Though we do not bear the sin of our fathers in the sense that what my father or his father, etc.. did will not be why I am condemned, we do bear the consequences of sin. For example in the scripture cited in Exodus, you will note that we are punished to the third and fourth generation for the sins of our fathers. One example might be the sin in divorce. Divorce is the sin of a parent not the child. Yet the children suffer consequences of that divorce and their children, etc... But the person who is actually responsible for that divorce will bear the actual guilt for that sin.

What we are dealing with here is actually two principles. Paul addresses these principals in the Roman letter. Watchman Nee (one of my favorite authors) explains in his book The Normal Christian Life, that Paul is discussing the dual problem of "sins" and "sin" in the Roman letter. "Sins" as defined by Nee are those things we commit or omit that are dealt with by the blood of Christ. Jesus' covering of blood for the Chrisitian removes the barrier between us and God that exists because of the sins we commit or will commit. The blood removes our guilt. For instance, a parent or parents responsible for the sin of divorce may be covered by the blood of Jesus and thereby bear no guilt for that sin before God. However, as noted in the scripture from Exodus, the consequences of these sins though forgiven can still be in play. Look at the Biblical example of what happened to the children of King David, an adulterer and murderer forgiven by God.

"Sin" as defined by Nee is the basic "sin-priciple" at work in our lives. He notes, "No matter how many sins I commit, it is always the one sin-principle that leads to them. I need forgivenss for my sins, but I need also deliverance from the power of sin. The former touches my conscience, the latter my life. I may receive forgiveness for all my sins, but because of my sin I have, even then, no abiding peace of mind."

If you ask me that is a pretty sound assessment of things. Nee goes on to explain that that is why we have the cross of Christ. It is in the Cross that Paul explains we continually are reminded of our battle to rekon ourselves dead on a daily basis (Romans 6:11). It is the cross that empowers us to deal with the consequences of sin in our lives.

Eric

 

[meebs]

Thanks to you all. I see how everyday that kids suffer for thier parents sins (even when we grow up) so that makes sense.

OK, i think ive got enough to get me going.