Need Help Understanding Strong's Numbers

[Jason Jones]

Hey everyone, so I hope this is a good place to post this. I actually joined the forums to ask this question because I just can't seem to wrap my head around it or find a resource to do so.

My question is regarding Strong's Numbers and biblical grammar in general. I'm a recent student to learning Koine Greek, so I think this is an opportune time to get a solid answer to this question since I want to be as true to the real meaning of God's Word as I can be.

Okay so I will begin with an example:

I opened my NASB w/ Strong's Bible and clicked on the English word 'evil'. Here's my question:

So when I click on the word, it tells me the following: "Evil - poneros - usage by word in the Bible: evil (53), wicked (9), bad (5), one (5), more (2), things (2), what (2), crimes (1), envious (1), envy (1), malignant (1), man (1), vicious (1), worthless (1)"

So my question is this: If e.g. poneros can be translated / intended to mean any of these English words, how do I find out in any given biblical passage exactly which of the words the author intended for it to mean?

A similar experience that this will help me get an answer to involves church. I'll be listening to our Pastor and he will say something like this,
"Folks, the word 'evil' here is poneros in the Greek. Poneros can mean evil, but it can also be translated to mean "wicked", "bad", "crimes", and even "worthless". So we see in this passage here that what God is really telling us is that the evil deeds that we do in this life are not only wicked and considered a crime against Him, but they are ultimately worthless."

As you can see from my made up example here (although I hear these types of things in church all the time) the Pastor follows the line of thinking that goes somewhat like this - this word is translated here to mean X and in other places to also mean Y and Z, so therefore it ultimately means X, Y, and Z, some or all of which apply in this context

So as a student of the Bible, I am wondering if this is really the way to use Strong's numbers and any other word study material for that matter? If not, how IS it supposed to be used and how can we find the real, intended meaning of any given word?

Thank you!

 

[HTacianas]

Hey everyone, so I hope this is a good place to post this. I actually joined the forums to ask this question because I just can't seem to wrap my head around it or find a resource to do so.

My question is regarding Strong's Numbers and biblical grammar in general. I'm a recent student to learning Koine Greek, so I think this is an opportune time to get a solid answer to this question since I want to be as true to the real meaning of God's Word as I can be.

Okay so I will begin with an example:

I opened my NASB w/ Strong's Bible and clicked on the English word 'evil'. Here's my question:

So when I click on the word, it tells me the following: "Evil - poneros - usage by word in the Bible: evil (53), wicked (9), bad (5), one (5), more (2), things (2), what (2), crimes (1), envious (1), envy (1), malignant (1), man (1), vicious (1), worthless (1)"

So my question is this: If e.g. poneros can be translated / intended to mean any of these English words, how do I find out in any given biblical passage exactly which of the words the author intended for it to mean?

A similar experience that this will help me get an answer to involves church. I'll be listening to our Pastor and he will say something like this,
"Folks, the word 'evil' here is poneros in the Greek. Poneros can mean evil, but it can also be translated to mean "wicked", "bad", "crimes", and even "worthless". So we see in this passage here that what God is really telling us is that the evil deeds that we do in this life are not only wicked and considered a crime against Him, but they are ultimately worthless."

As you can see from my made up example here (although I hear these types of things in church all the time) the Pastor follows the line of thinking that goes somewhat like this - this word is translated here to mean X and in other places to also mean Y and Z, so therefore it ultimately means X, Y, and Z, some or all of which apply in this context

So as a student of the Bible, I am wondering if this is really the way to use Strong's numbers and any other word study material for that matter? If not, how IS it supposed to be used and how can we find the real, intended meaning of any given word?

Thank you!

Strong's uses the King James as authoritative. Those numbers represent the number of times each of those words occur in the King James bible. As if to say, "the translators of the King James bible are the authorities so this must be what these words mean". Your hypothetical pastor is doing the same thing. It's a bit circular.

The only thing you can do is compare different translations and reach your own conclusion. I also like to read commentaries by the Church Fathers. They spoke koine Greek as their first language and lived closer to the time the new testament was written. But then you have to contend with nearly the same thing, depending on who translated their commentaries. I've seen some translations of the fathers that literally use the King James bible to translate them also.

But a piece of advice. If you're learning Greek in the hopes of finding something in the bible no one has ever found before, you're not going to. Just think of poneros as meaning "something not so good".

 

[Jason Jones]

Thanks for the reply HT. Actually, I am not trying to learn Greek in order to find something no one has found necessarily. I am more-so trying to be able to come to my own conclusions on what and why a word is translated the way it is.

So I have 2 follow-up questions:

1. In my theoretical example, can the pastor be said to be rightly handling the word of God in concluding that "Paneros can either mean X, Y, and Z -- ipso facto paneros means X, Y, and Z." ?

2. To continue again with the poneros example: if poneros can be translated into and mean each of these English words: evil (53), wicked (9), bad (5), one (5), more (2), things (2), what (2), crimes (1), envious (1), envy (1), malignant (1), man (1), vicious (1), worthless (1) then, in the specific places in the Bible where poneros is found, how do we conclusively (or as conclusively as we can) come to a determination that poneros means X in any given place that it is used? This is what I mean:

Taking 1 Thess. 5:22 as an example, it says in the English (NASB) "Abstain from every form of evil (ponerou)".
1 Thess. 5:22 in the Greek:

So why is this translated as "evil" in this verse rather than as "envy", "crime", or anything else that would seem to as equally make sense? In other words, when the translators of a particular Bible version come to this verse, what factors go into their decision to say "Okay we are fairly confident that ponerou here should be translated as "of evil" instead of "of envy" ("abstain from every form of envy" seems to also make sense to me).

Thanks

 

[Hammster]

ADVISOR HAT ON


This thread has been moved to a more appropriate forum.


ADVISOR HAT OFF

 

[com7fy8]

In that case, possibly the overall meaning of God's word would favor using "evil", since God wants us to stay clear of every kind of evil. But "envy" would be talking about only one kind of evil; so "envy" would be too limited.

 

[JulieB67]

I agree with the other poster in that if you're using your Strong's, it will line up with every word in the KJV. You will at least know how each word is utilized in each verse. Because yes, the same English word can be translated back to different ones in the Hebrew/Greek depending on the verses.

 

[Davy]

Hey everyone, so I hope this is a good place to post this. I actually joined the forums to ask this question because I just can't seem to wrap my head around it or find a resource to do so.

My question is regarding Strong's Numbers and biblical grammar in general. I'm a recent student to learning Koine Greek, so I think this is an opportune time to get a solid answer to this question since I want to be as true to the real meaning of God's Word as I can be.

Okay so I will begin with an example:

I opened my NASB w/ Strong's Bible and clicked on the English word 'evil'. Here's my question:

So when I click on the word, it tells me the following: "Evil - poneros - usage by word in the Bible: evil (53), wicked (9), bad (5), one (5), more (2), things (2), what (2), crimes (1), envious (1), envy (1), malignant (1), man (1), vicious (1), worthless (1)"

So my question is this: If e.g. poneros can be translated / intended to mean any of these English words, how do I find out in any given biblical passage exactly which of the words the author intended for it to mean?

A similar experience that this will help me get an answer to involves church. I'll be listening to our Pastor and he will say something like this,
"Folks, the word 'evil' here is poneros in the Greek. Poneros can mean evil, but it can also be translated to mean "wicked", "bad", "crimes", and even "worthless". So we see in this passage here that what God is really telling us is that the evil deeds that we do in this life are not only wicked and considered a crime against Him, but they are ultimately worthless."

As you can see from my made up example here (although I hear these types of things in church all the time) the Pastor follows the line of thinking that goes somewhat like this - this word is translated here to mean X and in other places to also mean Y and Z, so therefore it ultimately means X, Y, and Z, some or all of which apply in this context

So as a student of the Bible, I am wondering if this is really the way to use Strong's numbers and any other word study material for that matter? If not, how IS it supposed to be used and how can we find the real, intended meaning of any given word?

Thank you!

It's more about the spirit of usage with those different examples. The idea is to look up the different applications and get a spiritual 'sense' for the meaning. Just like our English word 'dirty', it can have different applications also, so the Biblical languages aren't really any different in that respect. And your example is correct too, because ultimately there is no unrighteousness with God. Even the very first sin in the beginning was by Satan which is how the concept of death got started, for Rev.21 tells us in final there will be no more such thing as death. In God's future Kingdom evil and sin will not exist. So in the absolute sense, all those examples of 'poneros' could apply.

 

[Jason Jones]

It's more about the spirit of usage with those different examples. The idea is to look up the different applications and get a spiritual 'sense' for the meaning. Just like our English word 'dirty', it can have different applications also, so the Biblical languages aren't really any different in that respect. And your example is correct too, because ultimately there is no unrighteousness with God. Even the very first sin in the beginning was by Satan which is how the concept of death got started, for Rev.21 tells us in final there will be no more such thing as death. In God's future Kingdom evil and sin will not exist. So in the absolute sense, all those examples of 'poneros' could apply.

Thank you everyone for your contributions to helping me grasp this.

Quick follow-up question:

So if it's really about the essence of the word, then when I am preparing a sermon for example, and we are focusing in on a certain verse, let's say 2 Tim. 2:22, "So flee youthful passions (epithumia) and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart." (ESV)

If I want to emphasize the word "passions" here is it wise for me, for example, to look at Strong's, see that it says for this word "Usage by word: lusts (15), desires (8), desire (4), lust (4), coveting (2), earnestly (1), impulses (1), long (1), lustful (1)" and then come to the conclusion and convey to those I'm teaching something like "the word passions is 'epithumia' in the Greek and we find that the real essence behind this word is to lust, covet, or otherwise sinfully desire something that we do not have."

Am I on the right track with understanding how this process works?

 

[Davy]

Thank you everyone for your contributions to helping me grasp this.

Quick follow-up question:

So if it's really about the essence of the word, then when I am preparing a sermon for example, and we are focusing in on a certain verse, let's say 2 Tim. 2:22, "So flee youthful passions (epithumia) and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart." (ESV)

If I want to emphasize the word "passions" here is it wise for me, for example, to look at Strong's, see that it says for this word "Usage by word: lusts (15), desires (8), desire (4), lust (4), coveting (2), earnestly (1), impulses (1), long (1), lustful (1)" and then come to the conclusion and convey to those I'm teaching something like "the word passions is 'epithumia' in the Greek and we find that the real essence behind this word is to lust, covet, or otherwise sinfully desire something that we do not have."

Am I on the right track with understanding how this process works?

I think it important to keep in mind that the English word 'passion' is like before, dependent on its usage. It can mean having zeal for something good too. So putting stress on a word itself to me isn't really the goal, but instead to give the sense of the particular Scripture where used. It's like the word 'judge' where some get confused about that word, thinking it practically means to judge is evil when God Himself is our Judge, and Christ's giving of rewards to His servants is actually an act of judgment too. So it's not the word, it's how it's used.

 

[Jason Jones]

I think it important to keep in mind that the English word 'passion' is like before, dependent on its usage. It can mean having zeal for something good too. So putting stress on a word itself to me isn't really the goal, but instead to give the sense of the particular Scripture where used. It's like the word 'judge' where some get confused about that word, thinking it practically means to judge is evil when God Himself is our Judge, and Christ's giving of rewards to His servants is actually an act of judgment too. So it's not the word, it's how it's used.

Sorry, I think I'm not quite understanding. Can you give me a real Scriptural example of this?

Also, a related question, if I can just look at a word study guide like Strong's Numbers, or since I can just compare multiple translations when analyzing any particular passage of Scripture, then what is the ultimate point (or points) of learning the original languages of the Bible? Like what is the overarching goal to learning them?

 

[jacks]

I think we have to take the words in context to get a proper understanding. This isn't unique to Greek or the Bible, it is true of any language. For instance your first sentence says "Hey everyone, so I hope this is a good place to post this." You could examine each word and come up with multiple meanings. Take "Good" for example. In this context we can assume you mean "suitable or fit", but that is just one of about 15 or 20 definitions of "Good". And this is ignoring any cultural or current usages, that may be lost in time.

 

[Davy]

Sorry, I think I'm not quite understanding. Can you give me a real Scriptural example of this?

Also, a related question, if I can just look at a word study guide like Strong's Numbers, or since I can just compare multiple translations when analyzing any particular passage of Scripture, then what is the ultimate point (or points) of learning the original languages of the Bible? Like what is the overarching goal to learning them?

One of the main tools of the Strong's Concordance is a list of all the Bible passages where a particular manuscript word occurs showing its context usage. That's what it means by a concordance. You should learn to use that feature of the Strong's. The Strong's numbers are merely an index number assigned to each manuscript word or phrase. There are many Bible study tools that make use of the Strong's numbers.

I often use The Englishman's Concordance for word study, when I want to look up how a particular word in the manuscripts is used in various Scriptures. To use it, you first have to know the Strong's no. for the word. Then it will list all the Scriptures where that word is used, so you can get the 'sense' of how the word was translated to English.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Thanks for the reply HT. Actually, I am not trying to learn Greek in order to find something no one has found necessarily. I am more-so trying to be able to come to my own conclusions on what and why a word is translated the way it is.

So I have 2 follow-up questions:

1. In my theoretical example, can the pastor be said to be rightly handling the word of God in concluding that "Paneros can either mean X, Y, and Z -- ipso facto paneros means X, Y, and Z." ?

2. To continue again with the poneros example: if poneros can be translated into and mean each of these English words: evil (53), wicked (9), bad (5), one (5), more (2), things (2), what (2), crimes (1), envious (1), envy (1), malignant (1), man (1), vicious (1), worthless (1) then, in the specific places in the Bible where poneros is found, how do we conclusively (or as conclusively as we can) come to a determination that poneros means X in any given place that it is used? This is what I mean:

Taking 1 Thess. 5:22 as an example, it says in the English (NASB) "Abstain from every form of evil (ponerou)".
1 Thess. 5:22 in the Greek:
View attachment 295712
So why is this translated as "evil" in this verse rather than as "envy", "crime", or anything else that would seem to as equally make sense? In other words, when the translators of a particular Bible version come to this verse, what factors go into their decision to say "Okay we are fairly confident that ponerou here should be translated as "of evil" instead of "of envy" ("abstain from every form of envy" seems to also make sense to me).

Thanks

in that verse evil is being contrasted with good. That’s why evil best suits that particular verse.

“Do not quench the Spirit; do not despise prophetic utterances. But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭5:19-22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[TedT]

how do I find out in any given biblical passage exactly which of the words the author intended for it to mean?

Follow the leading of the Spirit you accept as the Holy Spirit. Ie, choose in faith.