Need help on a couple of verses

[blessedbe]

Ok, I'm new to reformed/Calvinist views, and would like some assistance on these two verses:

Genesis 18:20-21 . . .Consequently Jehovah said: "The cry of complaint about Sod´om and Go·mor´rah, yes, it is loud, and their sin, yes, it is very heavy. I am quite determined to go down that I may see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it."

Genesis 22:12 And he went on to say: "Do not put out your hand against the boy and do not do anything at all to him, for now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me."

Now, these verses seem to indicate a Selective Foreknowledge that God uses sometimes. I am in dialogue with someone who is using these verses to prove
A: That God chooses not to know who will be saved and who will not be, because if He were to know, then the offer of Salvation to all would not be valid or honest and it would give "false hope" to millions who are not going to be saved

and B: That Jesus did NOT know Judas was going to be the one to betray Him, because if He did know who it was and chose him anyway, he would be a "sharer" in the sins of Judas, which would violate some "divine" rule of God. He uses 1Timothy 5:22 as this 'divine precedent'--"Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people's sins; keep yourself pure"

It's all pretty rediculous I know, but I'm just not sure how to explain those 2 verses--they do seem to show some choice in what God "knows" and doesn't "know". I'd LOVE some help from you guys here. I need a different perspective; because to be honest, alot of people I know believe this very same thing, and I'm having trouble reconsciling "omniscence" and "selective foreknowledge"

HELP!!!!!!

 

[JM]

John Gill on the verses in question:

Gen 18:20 - And the Lord said,.... The Targum of Jonathan adds, to the ministering angels, the two angels that were with him in the likeness of men; or to Abraham, at least in his hearing, by which he understood that Sodom and other cities were about to be destroyed for their sins:

because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great; either of Lot in it, whose righteous soul was vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked, and cried to heaven against them; or of the inhabitants that were oppressed by others, either in their bodies, being forced to submit to their unnatural usage of them, or in their estates, of which they wronged them; particularly the cry of the poor among them, whom they suffered to starve, though there were fulness of bread in the midst of them, see Eze_16:49; the Jews (b) say, they appointed false judges, who oppressed all strangers that came to Sodom, and made a law, that whoever relieved a poor person should be burnt with fire: or the cry of their sins, which were many and great, and openly and impudently committed; the cry of which came into the ears of the Lord of hosts, and called for vengeance. Those two cities, which perhaps were the greatest and the most remarkable for their sins, are put for all the five cities of the plain, called Pentapolis.

And because their sin is very grievous; attended with very aggravated circumstances, they enjoyed great plenty of good things; and were not to be bore with, being so exceeding sinful, and so publicly and audaciously committed, especially that sin so frequent among them, which has its name from Sodom, see Gen_13:13.

(b) Pirke Eliezer, c. 25.

Gen 22:12 - And he said, lay not thine hand upon the lad,.... Which he was just going to stretch out, with his knife in it, to slay him; and though the Lord had bid him take his son, and offer him for a burnt offering, to try his faith, fear, love, and obedience, yet he meant not that he should actually slay him, but would prevent it when it came to the crisis; for he approves not of, nor delights in human sacrifices; and that this might not be dawn into an example, it was prevented; though the Gentiles, under the influence of Satan, in imitation of this, have practised it:

neither do thou anything unto him; by lacerating his flesh, letting out any of his blood, or wounding him ever so slightly in any part:

for now I know that thou fearest God; with a truly childlike filial fear; with such a reverence of him that has fervent love, and strong affection, joined with it; with a fear that includes the whole of internal religious worship, awe of the divine Being, submission to his will, faith in him, and love to him, and obedience springing from thence. And this is said, not as though he was ignorant before how things would issue; for he knew from all eternity what Abraham would be, and what he would do, having determined to bestow that grace upon him, and work it in him, which would influence and enable him to act the part he did; he knew full well beforehand what would be the consequence of such a trial of him; but this is said after the manner of men, who know things with certainty when they come to pass, and appear plain and evident: or this may be understood of a knowledge of approbation, that the Lord now knew, and approved of the faith, fear, love, and obedience of Abraham, which were so conspicuous in this affair, see Psa_1:6; Saadiah Gaon (i) interprets it, "I have made known", that is, to others; God by trying Abraham made it manifest to others, to all the world, to all that should hear of or read this account of things, that he was a man that feared God, loved him, believed in him, and obeyed him, of which this instance is a full and convincing proof:

seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me: but as soon as he had the order to offer him up, prepared for it, took a three days' journey, and all things along with him for the sacrifice; when he came to the place, built an altar, laid the wood in order, bound his son, and laid him on it, took the knife, and was going to put it to his throat; so that the Lord looked upon the thing as if it was really done: it was a plain case that he did not, and would not have withheld his son, but would have freely offered him a sacrifice unto God at his command; and that he loved the Lord more than he did his son, and had a greater regard to the command of God than to the life of his son, and preferred the one to the other. And thus God spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, Rom_8:32.

(i) Apud Aben Ezram, in ver. 1.

 

[blessedbe]

And this is said, not as though he was ignorant before how things would issue; for he knew from all eternity what Abraham would be, and what he would do, having determined to bestow that grace upon him, and work it in him, which would influence and enable him to act the part he did; he knew full well beforehand what would be the consequence of such a trial of him; but this is said after the manner of men, who know things with certainty when they come to pass, and appear plain and evident: or this may be understood of a knowledge of approbation, that the Lord now knew, and approved of the faith, fear, love, and obedience of Abraham, which were so conspicuous in this affair, see Psa_1:6; Saadiah Gaon (i) interprets it, "I have made known", that is, to others; God by trying Abraham made it manifest to others, to all the world, to all that should hear of or read this account of things, that he was a man that feared God, loved him, believed in him, and obeyed him, of which this instance is a full and convincing proof

That is a wonderful explanation! It makes total sense. It's very similar to what I was telling this person about the writers of the new testament. they put in little clarifying statements when they were writing the gospels, things that became very clear to them AFTER the death and ressurection of Christ, and wanted the readers to know about. Examples being John 6:71 and John 13:28-29. In both of these instances, John wanted us to realize right away the importance of what was happening and what was said. Much like in the OT, God speaking "after the manner of man". i know it's not exactly the same, but I see parallels....

Any other thoughts on this????

 

[St. Worm2]

Blessdbe - tread lightly around these folks. They adhere to a heresy that is called, "Open Theism", and you will not get through to them. Their mission in life is to bring their UN-orthodox beliefs into the mainstream of orthodox thought.

No Protestant denomination recognizes their heresy. In fact, many denominations now include a denunciation of "Open Theism" in their doctrinal statements. And, of course, the Roman Catholics and Orthodox hold their beliefs to be heresy as well.

It’s good to know how to answer questions that are raised about your faith (1 Peter 3:15). But discussions with Open Theists always end up being bottomless pits.

You might want to read a little about it from authors like John Piper or R C Sproul who have both written books. Piper’s book, “Beyond the Bounds: Open Theism and the Undermining of Biblical Christianity” looks pretty good (see http://www.discerningreader.com/beybounjohpi.html) In fact, I think I am going to pick that one up for myself

And here are a couple of links to Web-based articles for you: http://www.carm.org/open.htm ... (or for more articles go to http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/bad_theology.html and scroll down to Open Theism).

Yours and His,
David