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Need help debating athiests

crawfish

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Your examples are attributes of existing things. Those can be discovered by science. We do not know that there is not a flat planet somewhere - we can infer it through physics, but we cannot be sure that there might be some law or phenomenon that we do not currently know about. You can, however, prove that our earth is not flat or that the solar system does not revolve around it.

You cannot prove that fairies don't exist in some other parallel dimension and they are able to pop into our dimension at will.

Falsification is disproving a specific testable claim. You cannot disprove something that has infinite possibilities in how it can be claimed to be true.

But we weren't talking about either God or the supernatural. We were talking about material entities called "fairies". And, because of the statements that define "fairie", we can and have disproved them. We've also disproved unicorns.

You see? You're only falsifying fairies by limiting the scope of the claims about them.

You also need to consider that many supernatural entities have been disproven through evidence. That's what theists have done with a host of versions of deity: Zeus, Thor, Quetzelecoatl, Osiris, Marduk, etc.

Have they? Maybe they just left the material plane and entered some heaven that is yet undetectable by us. Maybe they were aliens and they left the earth with no trace. Maybe they were demons that God threw into hell. Is our scientific knowledge great enough to conclusively say that none of that could happen?


Evidence is anything that lends support of an idea. The fact that Christianity grew and thrived despite early persecution and execution? It's not conclusive evidence, but evidence. The fact that the text of the bible works in the modern world in a way that no other ancient book does? Not conclusive evidence, but evidence. IMO, you will eventually see so much uniqueness and coincidence when evaluating history that the overall evidence that Christianity, and its concept of a Messiah, becomes very compelling even on a secular basis. That is what I'm talking about.
 
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lucaspa

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Your examples are attributes of existing things. Those can be discovered by science.

"flat earth" is a thing. It is not an attribute of "earth".

We do not know that there is not a flat planet somewhere - we can infer it through physics, but we cannot be sure that there might be some law or phenomenon that we do not currently know about.

"flat planet" is a different theory and a different thing. And, because you have made the entity so general, no, we can't falsify it. So it remains as a possibility.

You can, however, prove that our earth is not flat or that the solar system does not revolve around it. ..Falsification is disproving a specific testable claim.

Thank you for showing that these "things" can be disproven. You just proved my point. Many "specific testable claims" involve "things". Well, actually, every "specific testable claim" is a thing. Being a "claim" makes it a thing: a claim.

You cannot prove that fairies don't exist in some other parallel dimension and they are able to pop into our dimension at will.

Ah! Now you are changing the theory. The original theory of fairies did not have them in some parallel dimension. The statements of fairies put them squarely in our universe.

What you are doing is adding "ad hoc hypothesis" because the "something" -- fairies -- has been disproven. You can do this for any and every theory. You can keep adding ad hoc hypotheses until you make the "something" unfalsifiable.

BUT, it's not a valid tactic. In order for ad hoc hypotheses to be valid, they must be testable independently of the theory (something) they are trying to save. So, is "parallel dimension" testable by any means that does not involve a hiding place for fairies? No.

You cannot disprove something that has infinite possibilities in how it can be claimed to be true.

But that wasn't your original claim. You claimed you couldn't prove anything false. Now you have a subset that can't be proved false.

However, deity doesn't have an "infinite possibilities in how it can be claimed to be true". And certainly Yahweh (the Judeo-Christian deity) has limited possibilities. So even here deity could be disproved if we could get the evidence to do so. The problem is that science can't get the evidence. Either the evidence isn't there or science is incapable of getting the evidence.

You see? You're only falsifying fairies by limiting the scope of the claims about them.

No, I'm saying that those "things" already have limitations on the scope. That's how they were stated originally. You can avoid falsification --when the evidence shows up -- by changing the claim. Now you have to decide whether that is a valid thing to do.

Maybe they just left the material plane and entered some heaven that is yet undetectable by us.

1. Again, you are making ad hoc hypotheses.
2. You didn't consider how theists decided those deities were falsified. Basically, in each case statements were made about what the deities did: Zeus and Thor made lightning, Marduk made plants grow, Osiris also made plants grow and oversaw the Underworld. What happened is that different causes were found for what those deities did. Also, remember Zeus was said to live in material houses on Mt. Olympus. Climb that mountain and there are no houses. (Of course, you can now add the ad hoc hypothesis that the houses are invisible and immaterial. )

Evidence is anything that lends support of an idea.

That's what you think "evidence" is? But what would that be? What eventually is "anything"? Shoot, by your definition a lie would be evidence. It is "anything" and it can lend support to an idea.

What about something that contradicts an idea? Is that evidence? By your logic, anything that contradicted the idea that a person is guilty could not be entered into evidence in a court of law. After all, the idea being judged is whether the person is guilty. So anything showing differently would not be "evidence". I know, I know, you are going to say there is the idea that the person is innocent. But that isn't the idea in a court of law.

When you get down to basics: evidence is personal experience. David Hume first showed this and no one has contradicted that. Personal experience is what we see, hear, touch, smell, taste, or feel emotionally.

So, let's look at your "evidence". and see if we really think those "support an idea"

The fact that Christianity grew and thrived despite early persecution and execution?

Nazism also grew and thrived despite early persecution and execution. So did Marxism. Does that make either one of those true?

What you need to do is look deeper and ask why Christianity grew and thrived during the days of persecution. Because the personal experience of Christians -- experience of God and the Holy Spirit -- made them think it was true. The adherence of early Christians to Christianity is a result of evidence, not evidence itself. That adherence is evidence that they thought their personal experiences were genuine. If not, early Christians would have given up their beliefs when things got bad, just like most Nazis gave up their beliefs during and after WWII.

The fact that the text of the bible works in the modern world in a way that no other ancient book does?

You mean the writings of Buddha do not work in the modern world? That's a surprise, considering that Buddhism is a very large religion. I would even say that the writings of the Stoics work in the modern world just as well as the Bible. So there goes your claim "no other ancient book".

All the surviving religions have gone thru and survived (that's why they are surviving) rigorous testing. What you need to do is look deeper. The essential question is: why would people either 1) believe in Yahweh or 2) believe that Jesus was Resurrected.

The answer is in personal experience. Judeo-Christianity is a historical religion, and history is the personal experiences of people in the past. We believe that the Exodus was an historical event. We believe Jesus' resurrection was an historical event. We believe those people who had personal experience of those events reported them accurately.

Then, of course, there are the millions of people thru the centuries who report having personal experience of deity. If you have such experience, then that is all the evidence you need. After all, that's all any of us use in deciding anything: personal experience. Science simply works with a subset of personal experience where the personal experience is the same for everyone under approximately the same circumstances. So the experience of Darwin looking at variation in populations is also our experience (if we did the same thing). My experience of looking at bone regeneration when MASCs are present is your experience (if you did the same thing).

The personal experience of atheists is different. They have no experience of God. That's their experience. From that they conclude that God does not exist. However, there are several other hypotheses that will also explain their lack of experience if God exists. So their conclusion is a matter of choice -- faith.
 
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crawfish

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lucaspa, I'm going to try to reign this in a bit.

First, I am sorry. You can prove something is false given strict definitions and boundaries, given that those definitions and boundaries are testable. The supernatural, by definition, does not have testable definitions or boundaries, so any supernatural claims are ultimately untestable and unfalsifiable. I think the problem is that when you read the OP, you automatically assigned boundaries to the question and I did not.

Second, yes! A lie can be evidence. Archaeology deals with "lies" - otherwise known as myth - all the time, and those lies are intermixed with truth. If we want to extract truth from ancient texts, we must divine ways to determine what is truth and what is not, and sometimes we can even use myth to tell us things about that society. There is a science behind this process.

A court of law does accept some level of this kind of evidence. How does one get convicted of a murder without a body, a weapon and scant (or no) physical evidence? By amassing a level of circumstantial evidence significant enough to overcome a jury's assumption of innocence.

Third, I think you have a mistaken view of atheism. Most atheists I have spoken to claim that there *could* be a creator God. For them, it is a matter of probability - they think the chances that there is a creator is so small that they don't feel the need to pursue it. While there is some level of "faith" associated with accepting that view so strongly that you choose to ignore even the slightest possibility of God's truth, it is a faith based in reason.

Again, I don't completely disagree with most of your conclusions.
 
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lucaspa

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Eeeeh. I think the supernatural does have testable definitions or boundaries. It's just that, so far, testing has failed to show it false. What's more, another problem is the limitation of science. Asking science, right now, to falsify Judeo-Christianity is like asking the Hubble telescope to falsify mitochondria. Wrong tool.

That said, it looks to me that there is one way for science to falsify the Yahweh and most versions of deity. One of the essential features of deity is that deity creates the universe. There are some scientific hypotheses out there where deity does not create. Most of them are not testable. However,one of them -- ekpyrotic -- is. Ekpyrotic predicts particular gravity waves. Should we find those gravity waves, then ekpyrotic, like Relativity, fulfills a "risky prediction". Without deity creating the universe, the rest of the attributes of deity can be subsumed in a very technically advanced alien.

Second, yes! A lie can be evidence. Archaeology deals with "lies" - otherwise known as myth -

Myth does not automatically = lie. That is a rhetorical argument used by militant atheists. Call something a myth and you get to dismiss it as wrong. But you can't really do that. You acknowledge this when you say "those lies are intermixed with truth." You must demonstrate that a myth is wrong. For instance, it looks like the "myth" of Noah's Flood is rooted in an actual historical event. It's not a world-wide flood, but a very serious local flood where individuals did preserve a breeding stock of domestic animals.


Glad you acknowledged that personal experience is valid. What you mean by "circumstantial evidence", I hope, is eyewitnesses. Their personal experience is allowed as evididence.

Third, I think you have a mistaken view of atheism. Most atheists I have spoken to claim that there *could* be a creator God.

If they are doing that, then they are really agnostics. My observations is that atheists generally hate to admit that what they have is a faith. Therefore they play all kinds of games to try to deceive themselves of the faith status of atheism. This is one of them.

For them, it is a matter of probability

Ask them to show you the probability calculations. I have yet to see any produced. Without those calculations, the atheist is just trying to cloak their faith in fake scientific language.

While there is some level of "faith" associated with accepting that view so strongly that you choose to ignore even the slightest possibility of God's truth, it is a faith based in reason.

1. I never said atheism, for many atheists, wasn't based in reason. But then, theism is a faith based in reason, too.

2. However, once you make the "probability" conclusion, you must then make some other statements, and those are faith based. One of the statements an atheist must make (in order to remain an atheist) is that all the "natural" processes happen on their own. For this they have no evidence. They must rely totally on blind faith. There are other positive statements of faith that are necessary for atheism to exist. One of the failures of most atheists is that they refrain from critically thinking and skepticism about their atheism and don't realize these statements. I find that ironic, and amusing, for a faith that prides itself on critical thinking and skepticism.
 
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crawfish

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Glad you acknowledged that personal experience is valid. What you mean by "circumstantial evidence", I hope, is eyewitnesses. Their personal experience is allowed as evididence.

Eyewitness evidence is not always circumstantial evidence. Here is what I mean. Imagine a situation where a woman has been missing without a trace for six months. The police suspect murder, but they do not have a body or a weapon - they only have a time frame in which the murder could have occurred after she was last seen and before she was expected to be seen again. The police find the following:

1) Based on personal characteristics garnered from friends, family and things from her life (letters, history, etc), is absolutely against the nature of the woman to simply disappear.

2) The husband's whereabouts during the time frame in question are unverifiable.

3) The husband was having an affair at the time.

4) There was a large insurance settlement on the woman.

5) The husband has a history of violence (but not murder).

Now, each single piece of this evidence is by itself worthless. For #1, that does not mean she could not have wanted to disappear. For #2, lots of people could not verify their whereabouts at that time. For #3, millions of affairs happen without murder every day. If you can amass enough circumstantial evidence, then you can get an indictment against someone, and possibly even a conviction. Even though nothing can be proven, the sheer amount of circumstantial evidence is enough to cancel reasonable doubt in a jury.

This is how we build a case for the reasonableness of scripture, and of the story it tells. We cannot prove anything; but we can show that there are strong reasons to believe without proof. Certainly, faith must always be part of the picture.
 
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lucaspa

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Eyewitness evidence is not always circumstantial evidence.

You do realize that all the "circumstantial evidence" is personal experience, right?

1) Based on personal characteristics garnered from friends, family and things from her life (letters, history, etc), is absolutely against the nature of the woman to simply disappear.

What we have are the personal experience of the woman's "nature". Their experience of her personality.

2) The husband's whereabouts during the time frame in question are unverifiable.

Personal experience of the investigator.

3) The husband was having an affair at the time.

Personal experience of the investigator interviewing the husband, co-workers, friends, girlfriend (and getting their personal experience), looking at credit card receipts, etc.

4) There was a large insurance settlement on the woman.

Again, personal experience of those reading the insurance policy and settlement.

5) The husband has a history of violence (but not murder).

Personal experience of the recipients of the violence. Personal experience of those reading the police reports.

This is how we build a case for the reasonableness of scripture,

Notice you are talking about belief in scripture. Not belief in God. Is this how you want to debate an atheist? Arguing for belief in scripture?

When it gets down to basics, all scripture is personal experience of God. Either direct experience (as Moses and the Burning Bush or Saul on the road to Damascus) or the experience of inspiration by God. It all comes down to whether the experience is accurate or not. In your scenario above, if people lied about the husband being violent, there goes part of the evidence. Or suppose the girlfriend lied about having an affair? Or suppose his alibi lied about the whereabouts?

Your "strong reasons to believe without proof" all comes down to trusting that the experiences reported are accurate and really of deity. That's where the "belief" and "faith" come in.

Now, if you have your own personal experience of deity, that will convince you. It won't convince anyone who does not have similar experience.
 
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