Need advice

Mayzoo · Sep 12, 2012

Tropical Wilds said:
I think the solution to this issue is far simpler than it's being made out to be.

He's uncomfortable with your church and beliefs, but he got married in a ceremony consistent with your beliefs. He was able to put that aside to give you the ceremony that reflected you and your faith.

I'd think the fair and equitable thing is that you do the same and participate in the ceremony that does the same for him and his faith as your ceremony did for yours in your faith. It will resolve the issues of your concerns about how your marriage is viewed and it'd, I'd think, be a nice way to extend a show of faith towards your husband and his needs. If need be, sit down with whomever you'd need to sit down in with in his church and find out how you can appease the family without compromising your beliefs.

That said, after the ceremony, his family will find something else to use to pick at you. And if you have children, the issue of confirmation and baptism will come up. So while this solution will solve that problem, it won't fix the overriding problem of his overbearing family.

This is where you guys need to work on some resolution. He does need to step up and defend you, and if not you, at least your marriage. Otherwise, the parents will always be interjecting themselves. Counseling will help, for both of you, either religious or secular. But even with this problem solved, you guys need to strengthen your unity so that he can help defend you to his family. And really, it's something he needs to do, not you.

A Catholic can correct the parts of this I have wrong, since I may have some of it wrong.

A Catholic cannot just pick a Christian and marry them in the Catholic Church at their will. Even after the requirements are met, the marriage will always be viewed as "non-sacramental ," but they may still be viewed as valid if all the requirements are met. It also is called a "mixed marriage." Here are two websites I found that outlines some of the requirements. It appears if he had already asked his Bishops permission, possibly the Bishop would have issued a permit for them marry outside the church so the marriage would be recognized:

Catholic Wedding Help: Can a Catholic marry a Christian who is not Catholic?

A Catholic needs to obtain permission from the local bishop in order to marry a baptized person of another faith, which is easily done through the Catholic pastor. Before permission can be granted, the following conditions must be met:

The Catholic party must promise to do all in his or her power to have all children baptized and raised in the Catholic Church.
The Catholic party must declare that she or he is prepared to remove all dangers that might cause him or her to fall away from the faith. (For instance, the Catholic person might want to ensure that he or she is not prevented from attending Mass or receiving sacraments.)
The non-Catholic person must be informed about the Catholic party's promises and obligation to fulfill them.
The couple must be informed of the ends and properties of marriage. (In a nutshell, the purpose of marriage is the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of children, and its essential properties are its unity and indissolubility.)

USCCB - (FLWY) - Frequently Asked Questions about Marriage

2. Do Catholics ever validly enter into non-sacramental marriages?

Yes. Marriages between Catholics and non-Christians, while they may still be valid in the eyes of the Church, are non-sacramental. With permission, a priest or deacon may witness such marriages.

seeingeyes · Sep 13, 2012

Maybe you could convert to Eastern Orthodox, then ask for a dispensation? There are different rules for a Catholic marrying an EO. Politics, ya know.

Lord Almighty. Save us from Your church.

CrashTestPoster · Sep 13, 2012

I thought the Catholic church regarded legal marriages as legitimate marriages. Huh.

1. Well, Ocean, what's the harm in just going along with it simply to keep the family peace? 2. You are letting these people run you down. You *are* married. Divorcing just so that he can marry a Catholic is over reactive and sinful.
3. I don't care about the family or denominational problems. You *aren't* unequally yoked.

sdmsanjose · Sep 13, 2012

Originally Posted by oceansmile http://www.christianforums.com/t7685063-4/#post61371272
Thanks, everyone.

This whole thing makes me head hurt, really.

He same some things last night about the Catholic Church being the original church put in place by Jesus, so I know I have no chance of "winning" this. And frankly, I don't want to go to church anymore, with him thinking Protestant churches are fake impostors, going against the will of God. I mean, how can you argue with Matthew 16:18? But I just can't believe that the Catholic Church even remotely has most things correctly.

I mean, how can you argue with Matthew 16:18?

Matthew 16
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.</SPAN>
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Are you saying that the Catholic Church is claiming to be this rock?
I dont know how you read Matthew 16 but it is clear to me that the rock is referring to what is said in the previous verse 16; Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
</SPAN>
To me Matthew is saying that anyone that has the fact that, Christ is the son of the living God, revealed to them by God is the rock of the church. That is not exclusive to the Catholic Church, as the Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, and other churches have that rock also.

If some men in a church try to say that their church is the only rock; well that is a very HUGE red flag in my way of thinking.

My advice to you would be for you to pray that God will guide you and your husbands heart. You have probably already done this but it seems that there is some real bitter and resentful feeling involved here. In my experience resentfulness and bitterness prevents the heart from being clay for the potters hand.

If there is bitterness and resentfulness in the marriage I dont think any church or others are going to be able to get the heart and spirit advancing to the kind of love that is needed in a successful marriage.

Maybe you and your husband would consider both of you going humbly before God and leave the church and anothers out of it for now. Maybe it has to start with you both rather than involve the church and others right now. I am not saying that others or the church would not be help but that it usually starts with the married couple becoming humble, and forgiving.

Mayzoo · Sep 13, 2012

What I have heard from Catholics is that they feel Peter is the rock upon which the first Catholic Church was formed and Peter was the first Pope of said church. From what I have read, the name Peter means "rock"--

Simon Peter
Shimon Kipha
CΙΜΗΟΝ ΚΗΦΑC
ܫܶܡܥܽܘܢ ܟ݁ܺܐܦ݂ܳܐ
(Simeon Kephas – Simon the Rock).

List of popes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Peter

oceansmile · Sep 13, 2012

Mayzoo said:
What I have heard from Catholics is that they feel Peter is the rock upon which the first Catholic Church was formed and Peter was the first Pope of said church. From what I have read, the name Peter means "rock"--

Yeah, this. They say Peter is the Rock, so Peter, as the first pope, was head of the church Christ placed on Earth. I disagree, for the reasons someone else mentioned above (the church is the rock, not Peter) but good luck convincing Catholics of that.

Mayzoo said:
A Catholic can correct the parts of this I have wrong, since I may have some of it wrong.

A Catholic cannot just pick a Christian and marry them in the Catholic Church at their will. Even after the requirements are met, the marriage will always be viewed as "non-sacramental ," but they may still be viewed as valid if all the requirements are met. It also is called a "mixed marriage."

This is correct. He did not ask for permission (which I guess is another reason we are "living in sin". However, by doing the convalidation, it does not make the marriage sacramental, but does make it valid.

MessianicMommy · Oct 4, 2012

How are you doing?

I found this and it might help you.

I think that this quote from Lumen Gentium (a document from Vatican 2 in the 60's) is a good view of the more current Catholic position on other denominations/faiths.

"The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God's word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize."

A2597 · Oct 4, 2012

oceansmile said:
Yeah, this. They say Peter is the Rock, so Peter, as the first pope, was head of the church Christ placed on Earth. I disagree, for the reasons someone else mentioned above (the church is the rock, not Peter) but good luck convincing Catholics of that.

This is correct. He did not ask for permission (which I guess is another reason we are "living in sin". However, by doing the convalidation, it does not make the marriage sacramental, but does make it valid.

(Note, coming here from 1st page)

OK, my family was kinda the opposite, my Dad was Christian, mom raised catholic. Big concerns before their marriage, same ones you are facing.

They met with her parents and a Catholic priest, and the priest flat out said that it wouldn't effect my mothers Salvation, still heaven bound, etc. etc.

Almost all of my extended family is Catholic. Christian Catholics that is. They fully believe in salvation through Christ work on the cross, and seek to follow Him. While there are undoubtedly some Catholics who are not Christian (Just as there are some Christians who are not saved) being a Catholic does NOT discount what Christ did.

My personal opinion? The fact that you are considering divorce over this is crazy. It's a small issue, and you are blowing it up into something huge. Seek Christ, and follow Him. You can do that in a Christian Church or the Catholic Church.

And think for a moment, if your entire family said "You are not really married!" and wanted some ritual to make you "Married" in their eyes, would you not spend a few minutes looking into it? Is that not worth a day / weeks / months time to remove the pressure from your family? While I agree with others that your husband should stand up to his family, that can be tiring, and if a little ceremony will get them off his back... I can't blame him for looking into it.

Also, from what I read, you and your husband need to open the communication lines a little. Find a good marriage counselor to mediate the discussion at first, but from what you've shared, more open communication could do wonders for this.

oceansmile · Oct 10, 2012

MessianicMommy said:
How are you doing?

I found this and it might help you.

I think that this quote from Lumen Gentium (a document from Vatican 2 in the 60's) is a good view of the more current Catholic position on other denominations/faiths.

I don't understand how they can say they are the "one church" and then throw other Christian churches a bone saying, "well, you sort of are as well". They can't have it both ways.

A2597 said:
My personal opinion? The fact that you are considering divorce over this is crazy. It's a small issue, and you are blowing it up into something huge. Seek Christ, and follow Him. You can do that in a Christian Church or the Catholic Church.

It's very, very hard to follow Christ when you are continually told that you are not a Christian and that your church is a false church. I know Vatican II changed things slightly to say that people like me are saved, but by their other actions and beliefs, it seems that was just something to make themselves a little less extreme.

mkgal1 · Oct 10, 2012

oceansmile said:
It's very, very hard to follow Christ when you are continually told that you are not a Christian and that your church is a false church. I know Vatican II changed things slightly to say that people like me are saved, but by their other actions and beliefs, it seems that was just something to make themselves a little less extreme.

Is your husband saying that or is he just silent and passive on the whole thing.....allowing his family to disrespect your beliefs?

oceansmile · Oct 10, 2012

mkgal1 said:
Is your husband saying that or is he just silent and passive on the whole thing.....allowing his family to disrespect your beliefs?

It started off with just his family and stuff I read on Catholic forums while researching, but now it's him saying that his church is the only church. I've stopped going to worship, because it's the only way I can avoid the entire argument.

mkgal1 · Oct 10, 2012

oceansmile said:
It started off with just his family and stuff I read on Catholic forums while researching, but now it's him saying that his church is the only church. I've stopped going to worship, because it's the only way I can avoid the entire argument.

.....and that you're "not really a Christian"??

So....what's his answer? Have you asked him directly what he sees the course of action to be (or even two possible choices)?

MessianicMommy · Oct 11, 2012

If I could... I'd like to suggest you going to talk to the local priest. Opening dialogue with him, very likely could clear up the entire issue.

My little village consists of a small Lutheran and small Catholic church and neither sees our practice as "unorthodox" or "heretical" or that we are somehow "less than" or that they are throwing a bone of fellowship. We have a good relationship so far with the people we've met from both churches without any issues. They understand our beliefs to an extent and we agree on the basics and that's all that truly matters.
That's how it ought to be.

My DH's family are all catholic. not all are practicing, but his grandparents and their family of origin are. We have absolutely no issues and no preaching at us that somehow we are not part of "the church" (as in unity of all believers worldwide) - but we had been asked when I first moved here about us not being officially part of a church. Any church. - paying tithes and going to have a christian burial kind of thing. Things work different here, and that is generally something seen as very important, even if you do not attend that church. Burials are handled totally different than in the US. Without having given your tithes to whatever org your church is under, you don't get a Christian, Jewish, Muslim or whatever your faith is, burial. MJ is not recognised as large enough yet to add to the "church tax" (aka tithe).

If I was having trouble with a church or church members telling me something I know is not the official list of documented beliefs, I'd take it to the higher ups in the congregation to ask about.

mkgal1 · Oct 11, 2012

oceansmile said:
My relationship with God sucks because I've been told for the past few years that I'm a harlot, that my church isn't "good enough" for salvation and that I need to stop trying to draw my husband away from the one true church (I haven't tried to convert him but apparently just being married is enough). How can anyone not have a hard time loving God when they hear that time and time again from family, friends, and the in-law's priest?

What really irritates me about what you've said in this post (one of the things) is why is the focus on you (others either implying or outright saying that you are a harlot)? Why is your husband perceived as blameless, while everything is cast on you? You both willingly entered marriage......right? And I'm assuming your husband proposed marriage (not you).....so, why are you the harlot?

Is your in-law's priest also your husband's priest? I don't believe he (that priest) is representing the attitude of the greater Catholic church......but, IMO it's probably not even worth trying to unravel things with the church. I'm of the opinion that the "church" is being used to give credibility to your husband's "side" (as if he has the "backing" of the church---against you, who stands alone). That's a bully tactic----and IMO, *that's* the problem---not differences in faith.

Avniel · Oct 11, 2012

mkgal1 said:
What really irritates me about what you've said in this post (one of the things) is why is the focus on you (others either implying or outright saying that you are a harlot)? Why is your husband perceived as blameless, while everything is cast on you? You both willingly entered marriage......right? And I'm assuming your husband proposed marriage (not you).....so, why are you the harlot?

Is your in-law's priest also your husband's priest? I don't believe he (that priest) is representing the attitude of the greater Catholic church......but, IMO it's probably not even worth trying to unravel things with the church. I'm of the opinion that the "church" is being used to give credibility to your husband's "side" (as if he has the "backing" of the church---against you, who stands alone). That's a bully tactic----and IMO, *that's* the problem---not differences in faith.

I agree this is my flesh speaking but I would have felt good if I came in here and saw she told everyone off.

This is my thing the disrespect is outrageous if were the OP I would cut off everyone from his family even people that are nice. Then pray read your word and go to war so to speak.

mkgal1 · Oct 11, 2012

Avniel said:
I agree this is my flesh speaking but I would have felt good if I came in here and saw she told everyone off.

This is my thing the disrespect is outrageous if were the OP I would cut off everyone from his family even people that are nice. Then pray read your word and go to war so to speak.

You'd feel good (Avniel--and I would as well) if there was some justice in this (that the right people were experiencing consequences of their attitudes).........and I don't believe that's "flesh speaking".

Situations like this get so difficult to unravel, because you aren't sure where the "voice" is coming from. I think that's the plan, really. It can be the husband's way of mistreating his wife in the name of God (which makes me ill, if that's the case)...and he doesn't even have to be actively saying these things---he can leave it up to his family.

Bottom line is.....if he isn't putting a border around their marriage and saying "you all keep out of here.....my wife isn't a harlot, she the woman I love and I won't have you speak about her in that way" then he isn't loving her. If it's reduced down to that (is that loving?), I think it makes it simpler to try to find a solution.

MessianicMommy · Oct 11, 2012

3 books I'd recommend for situations like these. "Toxic Faith", "The Subtle Power of Spiritual abuse", and "Boundaries" by Townsend and Cloud.

JCLover779 · Oct 11, 2012

mkgal1 said:
You'd feel good (Avniel--and I would as well) if there was some justice in this (that the right people were experiencing consequences of their attitudes).........and I don't believe that's "flesh speaking".

Situations like this get so difficult to unravel, because you aren't sure where the "voice" is coming from. I think that's the plan, really. It can be the husband's way of mistreating his wife in the name of God (which makes me ill, if that's the case)...and he doesn't even have to be actively saying these things---he can leave it up to his family.

Bottom line is.....if he isn't putting a border around their marriage and saying "you all keep out of here.....my wife isn't a harlot, she the woman I love and I won't have you speak about her in that way" then he isn't loving her. If it's reduced down to that (is that loving?), I think it makes it simpler to try to find a solution.

Wow, that is a very insightful post.

Avniel · Oct 12, 2012

mkgal1 said:
You'd feel good (Avniel--and I would as well) if there was some justice in this (that the right people were experiencing consequences of their attitudes).........and I don't believe that's "flesh speaking".

Situations like this get so difficult to unravel, because you aren't sure where the "voice" is coming from. I think that's the plan, really. It can be the husband's way of mistreating his wife in the name of God (which makes me ill, if that's the case)...and he doesn't even have to be actively saying these things---he can leave it up to his family.

Bottom line is.....if he isn't putting a border around their marriage and saying "you all keep out of here.....my wife isn't a harlot, she the woman I love and I won't have you speak about her in that way" then he isn't loving her. If it's reduced down to that (is that loving?), I think it makes it simpler to try to find a solution.

I agree with you if my family member said any of those things to me, to my wife or even just said "it" to someone and it came back to me I would be irate. I had to tell a family member not to tell me to keep my family business to my family and not tell my wife. I spazzed out and said something's I'm trying to regret but I'm still a work in progress.

But to not defend your spouse is a betrayal only topped by adultery.

This is disgusting.

mkgal1 · Oct 12, 2012

Avniel said:
But to not defend your spouse is a betrayal only topped by adultery.

This is disgusting.

Earlier, I was going to post a quote from a law enforcement trainer....but, you summed up the message with that statement. That doesn't mean "my spouse is always right".....but, we are to defend our spouse (and our marriages) from destruction.

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