Need Advice: How to deal with the passion of the newly converted?

[Shadow]

I have made a new friend. We met on the Bus in December last year, and met up in January. We got back in touch this month and met up Yesterday.

He is a former Jehovah's Witness and a creationist, and I am (trying to be) an ex-communist. He is generally a nice guy, and we met up over coffee and a sandwich. I have a habit of attracting "interesting", but vulnerable people because I'm the kind of person who cares about them and can be very affectionate and tries to be a positive influence. [e.g. my girlfriend is an ex-nazi and I am trying to support some of the struggles she is going though. Its very affectionate but there is alot going on psychologically as we are both dealing with trying to leave our respective "cults".]

However, my new friend has taken an acute interest in communism and is very sympathetic to anarchist-communist ideas. (i.e. he wants to abolish money and have a direct democracy in which people run everything without a state). Whilst I am trying to leave that "cult" ideology behind, he is in danger of getting involved in it and I would end up facilitating it. We have agreed to meet up more often so we can discuss it. He wants to learn more and it was exhilarating to feel accepted and valued in his company. So after arriving home yesterday I bought some books online, trying to be careful to give him a balance of things so he can think for himself and not just read pure propaganda.

This is where the alarm bells are ringing. I like being able to talk about communism to someone and having an interested audience (as it doesn't happen much), so its good therapy for me. It's the first time its happened and its really nice to feel appreciated. That's the selfish bit. But I am wondering if basically the guy is too vulnerable and is really just looking for a kind of father figure to give him guidance and inspire confidence in himself. He is technically a little over a year older than me, but I wonder if he is simply looking for direction and searching for "utopia" is something deeper- a search for purpose and meaning in his life. At a guess, leaving the JW's means he is looking for a new faith, something that will inspire confidence in him and his future and I sense a certain desperation that someone else could easily manipulate and liable to go off in unexpected directions. It happens and I don't want to be the bad guy setting him on a path to political violence or else supporting a cause which doesn't deserve it. He deserves better than that basically.

If I give him the information, it is ultimately his decision what he does with it- and that makes me nervous. Even with the best of intentions this could easily go off in uncomfortable directions. I feel like I'm dealing with a kid who wants to ride off in to the sunset and "change the world", but may not be ready to understand the price people paid for those dreams of freedom and utopia and the very adult world- with all its horrors, arbitrary cruelty and brutality- that is beyond the horizon. He was reading a copy of "Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland" about how civilians were drawn in to the violence of the holocaust which makes me wonder if he might be open to understanding it.

It would be a really steep learning curve though and, based on my own experience, this is difficult for any full grown adult to deal with because of the level of emotional maturity and intensity of moral feelings involved. There will be a "honeymoon" phase where everything appears new, and it greatly expands the sense of what is possible and he will grow as a person, but then the real work begins when he realises its limitations. That will be hard for me to watch because I know how painful it is and inflicting that on someone isn't what I'd want to to. The problem is I think he may well take an interest in it anyway so being there for him might be better than not doing anything at all.

The best outcome would be if I could help inspire a desire for learning and a respect for knowledge so that he has both confidence in himself and a stronger immunity to propaganda and be a "good teacher", using my experience to steer him away from the really dangerous and extreme stuff. Then I'm wondering if basically this material and his personality is inherently too unstable and dangerous and sharing it with him is selfish and will only hurt him in the long run. At best, its personal growth, but at worst its the intellectual equivalent of a recovering drug addict giving drugs to someone who is vulnerable and simply looking for a high. If this was an innocent bit of fun I wouldn't feel too bothered about it, but I just feel uneasy. Its only natural to be concerned that he may repeat my mistakes, or make others, and to want to try to instil a sense of using knowledge wisely and responsibly. But I don't know how best to do that because I've spent years doing this on my own, so there was never anyone who could put their arm round me, give me reassurance and help me come to term with the confusion and bitter disappointment of passionate beliefs. That is something I might be able to do for him, but that is a lot to ask.

Any thoughts?

 

[SkyWriting]

I have made a new friend. We met on the Bus in December last year, and met up in January. We got back in touch this month and met up Yesterday.

He is a former Jehovah's Witness and a creationist, and I am (trying to be) an ex-communist. He is generally a nice guy, and we met up over coffee and a sandwich. I have a habit of attracting "interesting", but vulnerable people because I'm the kind of person who cares about them and can be very affectionate and tries to be a positive influence. [e.g. my girlfriend is an ex-nazi and I am trying to support some of the struggles she is going though. Its very affectionate but there is alot going on psychologically as we are both dealing with trying to leave our respective "cults".]

However, my new friend has taken an acute interest in communism and is very sympathetic to anarchist-communist ideas. (i.e. he wants to abolish money and have a direct democracy in which people run everything without a state). Whilst I am trying to leave that "cult" ideology behind, he is in danger of getting involved in it and I would end up facilitating it. We have agreed to meet up more often so we can discuss it. He wants to learn more and it was exhilarating to feel accepted and valued in his company. So after arriving home yesterday I bought some books online, trying to be careful to give him a balance of things so he can think for himself and not just read pure propaganda.

This is where the alarm bells are ringing. I like being able to talk about communism to someone and having an interested audience (as it doesn't happen much), so its good therapy for me. It's the first time its happened and its really nice to feel appreciated. That's the selfish bit. But I am wondering if basically the guy is too vulnerable and is really just looking for a kind of father figure to give him guidance and inspire confidence in himself. He is technically a little over a year older than me, but I wonder if he is simply looking for direction and searching for "utopia" is something deeper- a search for purpose and meaning in his life. At a guess, leaving the JW's means he is looking for a new faith, something that will inspire confidence in him and his future and I sense a certain desperation that someone else could easily manipulate and liable to go off in unexpected directions. It happens and I don't want to be the bad guy setting him on a path to political violence or else supporting a cause which doesn't deserve it. He deserves better than that basically.

If I give him the information, it is ultimately his decision what he does with it- and that makes me nervous. Even with the best of intentions this could easily go off in uncomfortable directions. I feel like I'm dealing with a kid who wants to ride off in to the sunset and "change the world", but may not be ready to understand the price people paid for those dreams of freedom and utopia and the very adult world- with all its horrors, arbitrary cruelty and brutality- that is beyond the horizon. He was reading a copy of "Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland" about how civilians were drawn in to the violence of the holocaust which makes me wonder if he might be open to understanding it.

It would be a really steep learning curve though and, based on my own experience, this is difficult for any full grown adult to deal with because of the level of emotional maturity and intensity of moral feelings involved. There will be a "honeymoon" phase where everything appears new, and it greatly expands the sense of what is possible and he will grow as a person, but then the real work begins when he realises its limitations. That will be hard for me to watch because I know how painful it is and inflicting that on someone isn't what I'd want to to. The problem is I think he may well take an interest in it anyway so being there for him might be better than not doing anything at all.

The best outcome would be if I could help inspire a desire for learning and a respect for knowledge so that he has both confidence in himself and a stronger immunity to propaganda and be a "good teacher", using my experience to steer him away from the really dangerous and extreme stuff. Then I'm wondering if basically this material and his personality is inherently too unstable and dangerous and sharing it with him is selfish and will only hurt him in the long run. At best, its personal growth, but at worst its the intellectual equivalent of a recovering drug addict giving drugs to someone who is vulnerable and simply looking for a high. If this was an innocent bit of fun I wouldn't feel too bothered about it, but I just feel uneasy. Its only natural to be concerned that he may repeat my mistakes, or make others, and to want to try to instil a sense of using knowledge wisely and responsibly. But I don't know how best to do that because I've spent years doing this on my own, so there was never anyone who could put their arm round me, give me reassurance and help me come to term with the confusion and bitter disappointment of passionate beliefs. That is something I might be able to do for him, but that is a lot to ask.

Any thoughts?

Each of us takes a different path to Jesus.

Acts 15:11
On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

Romans 3:24
and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:16
So then, it does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Ephesians 2:5
made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

 

[Saint Steven]

It seems to me that if someone wants you to mentor them,
that means they want to be like you. The present you, not the past you.

If you tell him that you "fell in a pit" at some point in the past,
the discussion should be about how you got "out of the pit", not how you got into it.

 

[Greg J.]

Regarding his interest in communism: all political systems are made up of humans. None of them work. One of the significant differences between political systems is whether the average person can have hope for something better or not. A person without much hope is like the suffering, walking dead. Having hope in general usually means, can they work for something better for themselves? Can they replace the individuals that are controlling what people can and can't do (especially those that are doing things they don't like)?

He is interested in a political system that does not allow the freedom to choose to do that with hopeful expectations and success stories around him. A different political system (or subsystem such as political party) is not going to solve problems as much as potentially shift them around. The one focus that is guaranteed to make a person part of the solution to human troubles rather than a part of the problem is to follow Jesus Christ. Mainstream Christianity is mainstream for good reasons. It is only because of Jesus working on us that we genuinely get to transcend human needs and failings. Trying to be better behaved without Jesus is a pale imitation of that, which evaporates when under enough pressure or in enough pain, and results in human "robots" in pain.

Regarding what you should do, you could judge how childlike he is in his heart. The more childlike he is, the better for him it would be for you to treat him like a child. All people need more genuine love and acceptance than they are getting, and you may be seeing symptoms of that. IMO, it is best to try to help him with his core needs. (It may not be possible if he is in a "honeymoon" period.) Ideally, it would be connecting with a community of genuine devoted followers of Christ, preferably ones that have been that way a long time, but I've never come upon communities of such people in groups of more than a half dozen. (Try attending groups of people gathering just to pray.) Such people are a good way to get help connecting to God himself, which is what we all need.

 

[Bob Crowley]

You state you're an atheist, or at least your potted bio does. So I hardly expect you to point this new mate of yours towards the church, even though I firmly believe that's where the truth lies, when it's all said and done.

I have to say I admire your desire to help others. You sure seem to attract lame dogs, if you'll pardon the expression, ranging from ex-Nazi girl friends to ex-JW, would-be Communist revolutionaries. And I think he does see you as a sort of father figure. Maybe his own father was nothing to write home about, or noticeable by his absence.

In this case, he's just come out of the JW's. They have a fairly controlling program, and he's probably been told what to think, when to think and how to think. Now he's got to think for himself. It also seems that he has some underlying psychological issues, but without knowing anything else about him, I'm reluctant to offer my entirely amateur opinion.

So he's taken off on a beeline in the communist direction. I wouldn't be surprised if in 12 months time he's taken off on some completely different direction.

I think he needs some sort of support / discussion group, but the trouble would be to get him to accept it. Unless he does, he might have to learn the hard way for a while. A lot of people do.

 

[zippy2006]

Any thoughts?

It seems like you have a good grasp of the topography. His break with the Jehovah Witnesses may have released a great deal of psychological energy that has been building up over the years. Obviously he is in a vulnerable place intellectually (and probably psychologically).

Whatever you do, I would focus on channeling his energy into healthy activities, some of which will inevitably be intellectual. He needs to learn moderation and he needs to let the dust settle from the JW's before invests in something new. Intellectually, my advice would be to move into foundations and principles. Read a survey book on political philosophy together. Find a moderate, even-handed author who can point out the pros and cons of various systems of thought. That sort of thing might help teach him intellectual caution and humility. Or else you could try reading some ancient philosophers as they provide plenty of substance and yet are not as susceptible to ideological hijacking due to their remote historical and cultural circumstances. Communism just strikes me as too volatile for someone in his situation. He may need something simpler and quieter, with less drama, romance, and excitement (if that makes any sense).

But the intellectual energy probably needs to be balanced with something else. Basketball, canoeing, hiking? I don't know what you do over there in the U.K. Cricket?

You seem like an intelligent and introspective guy. You've thought a lot about this. Trust yourself to make a good decision. The friendship may be the biggest factor of all.

Blessings,
Zip

 

[Shadow]

Regarding his interest in communism: all political systems are made up of humans. None of them work. One of the significant differences between political systems is whether the average person can have hope for something better or not. A person without much hope is like the suffering, walking dead. Having hope in general usually means, can they work for something better for themselves? Can they replace the individuals that are controlling what people can and can't do (especially those that are doing things they don't like)?

He is interested in a political system that does not allow the freedom to choose to do that with hopeful expectations and success stories around him. A different political system (or subsystem such as political party) is not going to solve problems as much as potentially shift them around. The one focus that is guaranteed to make a person part of the solution to human troubles rather than a part of the problem is to follow Jesus Christ. Mainstream Christianity is mainstream for good reasons. It is only because of Jesus working on us that we genuinely get to transcend human needs and failings. Trying to be better behaved without Jesus is a pale imitation of that, which evaporates when under enough pressure or in enough pain, and results in human "robots" in pain.

Regarding what you should do, you could judge how childlike he is in his heart. The more childlike he is, the better for him it would be for you to treat him like a child. All people need more genuine love and acceptance than they are getting, and you may be seeing symptoms of that. IMO, it is best to try to help him with his core needs. (It may not be possible if he is in a "honeymoon" period.) Ideally, it would be connecting with a community of genuine devoted followers of Christ, preferably ones that have been that way a long time, but I've never come upon communities of such people in groups of more than a half dozen. (Try attending groups of people gathering just to pray.) Such people are a good way to get help connecting to God himself, which is what we all need.

I opened up to him and did say I felt he was a bit vulnerable and he took it well. I think (and hope) he was just glad to have someone look out for him. He may be a bit child-like but if we can be honest with each other, we can figure things out and how to be good friends. It's just a bit unexpected more than anything.

You state you're an atheist, or at least your potted bio does. So I hardly expect you to point this new mate of yours towards the church, even though I firmly believe that's where the truth lies, when it's all said and done.

I have to say I admire your desire to help others. You sure seem to attract lame dogs, if you'll pardon the expression, ranging from ex-Nazi girl friends to ex-JW, would-be Communist revolutionaries. And I think he does see you as a sort of father figure. Maybe his own father was nothing to write home about, or noticeable by his absence.

In this case, he's just come out of the JW's. They have a fairly controlling program, and he's probably been told what to think, when to think and how to think. Now he's got to think for himself. It also seems that he has some underlying psychological issues, but without knowing anything else about him, I'm reluctant to offer my entirely amateur opinion.

So he's taken off on a beeline in the communist direction. I wouldn't be surprised if in 12 months time he's taken off on some completely different direction.

I think he needs some sort of support / discussion group, but the trouble would be to get him to accept it. Unless he does, he might have to learn the hard way for a while. A lot of people do.

We met up last week and we actually went to the local church. We were standing up at the alter, looking at the stained glass and he said something like "the power of faith never really leaves you does it?" and I agreed/nodded and offered to give him a hug. It was his first time in a church and that was something of a privilege to share with him and was very emotional.

I am an atheist and have had the desire to "convert" others in the past, (although I suspect in the long-run that is insecurity and loneliness more than conviction making the decision for me.) In the end he has to find his own way and the best I can do is give him the tools to figure out where he wants to go. I settled on giving him a book on a Marxist history of science; i.e. something that is the least likely to indoctrinate him politically, yet open doors everywhere else and give him a bit of inspiration.

He does seem to be reading a lot (he's reading Jordan Peterson's 12 rules for life at the moment) and going from one set of ideas to another- so he's probably exploring and looking around (as he should be honestly).

I have to say I admire your desire to help others. You sure seem to attract lame dogs, if you'll pardon the expression, ranging from ex-Nazi girl friends to ex-JW, would-be Communist revolutionaries. And I think he does see you as a sort of father figure. Maybe his own father was nothing to write home about, or noticeable by his absence.

Thanks. And yeah, I seem to be a magnet for "lame dogs". If I had to guess, after years of non-conformity (and admittedly being a bit crazy), I think I give off a vibe that says "you can open up to this person and they won't judge you for it". It's a mixed blessing, but I seem to bump into lots of interesting people.

I learned last week that the JW's lost his faith after his father died and couldn't pretend death didn't matter anymore and wasn't getting answers anywhere else. So I might have been right about the "father figure" bit. There is obviously something of a "gap" which he is trying to fill and being interested in communism may be acting on an a millennial impulse from his JW days. That makes it a bit complicated, but probably something I will have to get used to as long as its mutually respectful. Ironically, it may be the kind of person who I need to open up to and can be myself around and figure out who I am as he does the same. It could be to both our advantage in the end.

It seems like you have a good grasp of the topography. His break with the Jehovah Witnesses may have released a great deal of psychological energy that has been building up over the years. Obviously he is in a vulnerable place intellectually (and probably psychologically).

Whatever you do, I would focus on channeling his energy into healthy activities, some of which will inevitably be intellectual. He needs to learn moderation and he needs to let the dust settle from the JW's before invests in something new. Intellectually, my advice would be to move into foundations and principles. Read a survey book on political philosophy together. Find a moderate, even-handed author who can point out the pros and cons of various systems of thought. That sort of thing might help teach him intellectual caution and humility. Or else you could try reading some ancient philosophers as they provide plenty of substance and yet are not as susceptible to ideological hijacking due to their remote historical and cultural circumstances. Communism just strikes me as too volatile for someone in his situation. He may need something simpler and quieter, with less drama, romance, and excitement (if that makes any sense).

But the intellectual energy probably needs to be balanced with something else. Basketball, canoeing, hiking? I don't know what you do over there in the U.K. Cricket?

You seem like an intelligent and introspective guy. You've thought a lot about this. Trust yourself to make a good decision. The friendship may be the biggest factor of all.

Blessings,
Zip

Thanks, that's really appreciated. (As I said above) I gave him a copy of a book on a (Marxist) history of science, so I agree with you on going back to foundations and principles. Its all about learning how to think and knowing yourself (which I'm having to do as well). I'm hoping it will focus his interests away from politics, whilst being able to share the best aspect of my own experience with him; the sense of how much there is to learn and to explore. I think that is the best thing I can share with him and a good, healthy friendship will make a huge difference for the both of us.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm sure there is a better, real term to describe this, but over the years I have seen what I usually describe as "New Convert Syndrome" or "Neophyte Syndrome". There is a tendency among those who have recently abandoned one set of personal beliefs, and/or recently adopted another set of beliefs. Longtime Christians losing faith, becoming atheists may become incredibly hostile to religion, especially the religion of their upbringing and become very zealous, even militant, atheists. In the same vein, a longtime atheist may become a Christian and now be incredibly gung-ho about their new religion, and very passionate against atheism. This happens in all sorts of ways, not just in matters of religion, but also politics and philosophy. Catholics-turned-Protestants, Protestants-turned-Catholics, conservatives-turned-liberals, liberals-turned-conservatives, and so forth.

I suspect that, on some psychological level, this is part of the process for some people to cope with a significant paradigm shift, rebalancing one's set of beliefs in one's mind is hardly an easy thing, and so it can be easy to get very passionate, emotional, and even very aggressive about it. I think most of the time people will grow out of it as they adjust and become more comfortable in their new set of values and ideas.

I think it is important to always remind people and help guide people to not lose themselves, but to encourage critical thinking, and to foster rational, civil discourse.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Steven Wood]

I have made a new friend. We met on the Bus in December last year, and met up in January. We got back in touch this month and met up Yesterday.

He is a former Jehovah's Witness and a creationist, and I am (trying to be) an ex-communist. He is generally a nice guy, and we met up over coffee and a sandwich. I have a habit of attracting "interesting", but vulnerable people because I'm the kind of person who cares about them and can be very affectionate and tries to be a positive influence. [e.g. my girlfriend is an ex-nazi and I am trying to support some of the struggles she is going though. Its very affectionate but there is alot going on psychologically as we are both dealing with trying to leave our respective "cults".]

However, my new friend has taken an acute interest in communism and is very sympathetic to anarchist-communist ideas. (i.e. he wants to abolish money and have a direct democracy in which people run everything without a state). Whilst I am trying to leave that "cult" ideology behind, he is in danger of getting involved in it and I would end up facilitating it. We have agreed to meet up more often so we can discuss it. He wants to learn more and it was exhilarating to feel accepted and valued in his company. So after arriving home yesterday I bought some books online, trying to be careful to give him a balance of things so he can think for himself and not just read pure propaganda.

This is where the alarm bells are ringing. I like being able to talk about communism to someone and having an interested audience (as it doesn't happen much), so its good therapy for me. It's the first time its happened and its really nice to feel appreciated. That's the selfish bit. But I am wondering if basically the guy is too vulnerable and is really just looking for a kind of father figure to give him guidance and inspire confidence in himself. He is technically a little over a year older than me, but I wonder if he is simply looking for direction and searching for "utopia" is something deeper- a search for purpose and meaning in his life. At a guess, leaving the JW's means he is looking for a new faith, something that will inspire confidence in him and his future and I sense a certain desperation that someone else could easily manipulate and liable to go off in unexpected directions. It happens and I don't want to be the bad guy setting him on a path to political violence or else supporting a cause which doesn't deserve it. He deserves better than that basically.

If I give him the information, it is ultimately his decision what he does with it- and that makes me nervous. Even with the best of intentions this could easily go off in uncomfortable directions. I feel like I'm dealing with a kid who wants to ride off in to the sunset and "change the world", but may not be ready to understand the price people paid for those dreams of freedom and utopia and the very adult world- with all its horrors, arbitrary cruelty and brutality- that is beyond the horizon. He was reading a copy of "Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland" about how civilians were drawn in to the violence of the holocaust which makes me wonder if he might be open to understanding it.

It would be a really steep learning curve though and, based on my own experience, this is difficult for any full grown adult to deal with because of the level of emotional maturity and intensity of moral feelings involved. There will be a "honeymoon" phase where everything appears new, and it greatly expands the sense of what is possible and he will grow as a person, but then the real work begins when he realises its limitations. That will be hard for me to watch because I know how painful it is and inflicting that on someone isn't what I'd want to to. The problem is I think he may well take an interest in it anyway so being there for him might be better than not doing anything at all.

The best outcome would be if I could help inspire a desire for learning and a respect for knowledge so that he has both confidence in himself and a stronger immunity to propaganda and be a "good teacher", using my experience to steer him away from the really dangerous and extreme stuff. Then I'm wondering if basically this material and his personality is inherently too unstable and dangerous and sharing it with him is selfish and will only hurt him in the long run. At best, its personal growth, but at worst its the intellectual equivalent of a recovering drug addict giving drugs to someone who is vulnerable and simply looking for a high. If this was an innocent bit of fun I wouldn't feel too bothered about it, but I just feel uneasy. Its only natural to be concerned that he may repeat my mistakes, or make others, and to want to try to instil a sense of using knowledge wisely and responsibly. But I don't know how best to do that because I've spent years doing this on my own, so there was never anyone who could put their arm round me, give me reassurance and help me come to term with the confusion and bitter disappointment of passionate beliefs. That is something I might be able to do for him, but that is a lot to ask.

Any thoughts?

I'm not sure of any exact advice. Are any or both of you trying to build and live a Christ-like life? It doesn't really matter to mentor this person but if you are, the idea that you may think he's trying to find a "utopia" comes into play. There is no man made system of rule that will make a utopia, only the return of Christ will. If it's not really so much a Christian approach that you're looking for you can always tell him about the concerns and events that caused you to change your entire world view, keeping that in mind as you discuss what you may deem beneficial knowledge about it.