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Not sure about this. We have a deep sense that real life consists of beings living out of their own (limited) agency, all interacting. If we remove all capacity to self direct, then we arent even people anymore in any sense that would separate us from trees, rocks, or anything. We're all just soulless matter behaving according to rules imposed upon us.....The idea that GOD wrote it doesn't make it a fiction.....
You must be laboring under two false premises.To be fair to God, we couldn't know if/how he does if he did because he exists outside of our reasoning.
You seem to suppose that we lose all capacity to self-direct if God causes all things. They are not incompatible. What makes "soul" is God. What makes anything real is God.Not sure about this. We have a deep sense that real life consists of beings living out of their own (limited) agency, all interacting. If we remove all capacity to self direct, then we arent even people anymore in any sense that would separate us from trees, rocks, or anything. We're all just soulless matter behaving according to rules imposed upon us.
Youre right, I do suppose that.You seem to suppose that we lose all capacity to self-direct if God causes all things. They are not incompatible. What makes "soul" is God. What makes anything real is God.
I'm curious, do you reject determinism as well, because it would seem to have the exact same effect of robbing you of your free will?If X causes all things, then there's no room for Y to cause anything. And self direction is me being the cause of some decisions in my life.
I do in fact reject physical determinism as well. Not dogmatically tho. I mean, I dont know for sure that physical determinism isnt real. Same with divine determinism. They both simply seem rationally unsupported to me, as well as undesirable. But I could be wrong.I'm curious, do you reject determinism as well, because it would seem to have the exact same effect of robbing you of your free will?
Or is it possible for your will to actually be an active component of determinism and not just an inconsequential byproduct thereof. In other words while physics may determine the outcome of any situation your will may still be an integral component of that situation, and therefore more than just an inconsequential byproduct thereof.
And might the same thing be true of God's will, that while God's will may be the ultimate determining agent in any situation your will is none-the-less an integral component of that situation. Therefore it may be wrong to simply conclude that God determines everything with no regard for your free will, but rather God determines everything but in tandem with your free will.
So you have lowered God to our sort of being, or mankind to God's order of being. There can be only one first cause. And it is self-contradictory to say that First Cause can bring a second first cause into being.Youre right, I do suppose that.
If X causes all things, then there's no room for Y to cause anything. And self direction is me being the cause of some decisions in my life.
But if X causes all things, then the effects that X causes can also be causes of further effects, just as X planned.
Y is an effect of causes, and whether by immediate cause, or by means of secondary (intermediate) causes, of First Cause. It may be a long chain of means, by which God causes all things, but it is a simple logic.
No. Just existing somewhere along an immutable cause-effect chain is not free will. It would be like saying the 6 ball had free will because it "caused" the 9 ball to drop in the side pocket.So you have lowered God to our sort of being, or mankind to God's order of being. There can be only one first cause. And it is self-contradictory to say that First Cause can bring a second first cause into being.
But if X causes all things, then the effects that X causes can also be causes of further effects, just as X planned. Y is an effect of causes, and whether by immediate cause, or by means of secondary (intermediate) causes, of First Cause. It may be a long chain of means, by which God causes all things, but it is a simple logic.
Why does your will need to be the true origin point of any decision you make? Maybe you mean, the true hinging point. It is, certainly, your will that makes the difference between one choice and another.With physical determinism Im not finding room for my will to be the true origin point of any decision.
HOW, is it that if one thing causes all subsequent things, no matter how far down the chain of causation, it doesn't cause all subsequent things? As one science writer said, rather poetically, something like, "The seeds of everything we see now, were sown in the Big Bang 14 billion years ago." IF the BB is truly what spawned this universe, it caused it.If those "further effects" are not all directly caused by God then God does not cause all things. Thus durangoda's objection applies equally well to these "further causes."
Yes, though Reformed theology does say that God uses means to further cause. That is why it is called, "means". The means by which further things are caused. His objection is addressed.According to your Reformed theology God causes the means just as much as he causes the ends, and thus durangoda's objection remains unaddressed.
Im not sure what a "hinging point" is. In your schema it sounds essentially like the moment one billiard ball touches another. My sense of free will has some aspect of a decision being up to you in the moment and not entirely contingent on previous events. Certainly not just following a script written in the heavens.Why does your will need to be the true origin point of any decision you make? Maybe you mean, the true hinging point. It is, certainly, your will that makes the difference between one choice and another.
I dont actually know whether strict cause/effect is entirely pervasive. I'm proposing its not. At the most basic level current physics allows for actually-random subatomic events. So theres that. But keeping at human scale, I want actual free will. It feels like I have actual free will. There's no persuasive argument that I dont have it. Therefore thats the story Im going with. Its also the western Judeo-Christian story as far as I can tell. The Bible only makes sense to me if people can to some degree make actual choices that belong to them alone. And as I noted, even God in the Bible changes His mind. So much for pre-destination and a script fixed from day one.But, is not cause-and-effect entirely pervasive? (And I include in that, God intervening into what we call natural, with what we call miracle. The miracle is still caused by first cause.)
Ok, then, let's say, 'point-of-divergence', as some propose, supposing that timelines actually split according to 'possibilities', instead of saying "hinges". (I can't understand how they figure that fact follows human narrative, but anyhow...).Im not sure what a "hinging point" is. In your schema it sounds essentially like the moment one billiard ball touches another. My sense of free will has some aspect of a decision being up to you in the moment and not entirely contingent on previous events. Certainly not just following a script written in the heavens.
Well, no, current physics models suggest events that appear random. There is no demand for actual random. The fact we don't know the cause(s) doesn't make it random. But if one trusts human terminology to accurately describe fact, then consider that Chance can determine nothing —it is self-contradictory.I dont actually know whether strict cause/effect is entirely pervasive. I'm proposing its not. At the most basic level current physics allows for actually-random subatomic events. So theres that. But keeping at human scale, I want actual free will. It feels like I have actual free will. There's no persuasive argument that I dont have it. Therefore thats the story Im going with. Its also the western Judeo-Christian story as far as I can tell. The Bible only makes sense to me if people can to some degree make actual choices that belong to them alone. And as I noted, even God in the Bible changes His mind. So much for pre-destination and a script fixed from day one.
Yes, this is exactly right. Here is what Aquinas says:My sense of free will has some aspect of a decision being up to you in the moment and not entirely contingent on previous events.
Finally, something we agree on.If you want to describe it in terms of morality, then yes, X is not to blame for Z's choices, merely by being a cause of Z, but X caused that Z chose, regardless, every bit as surely as the butterfly in China caused the hurricane in the Atlantic.
Your adversion to per accidens causality is beside the point. Sure, that the cue ball caused the 9-ball to drop into the pocket does not preclude the pool cue from causing the 9-ball to drop into the pocket. This is irrelevant to the argument durangoda gave. He is talking about immediate efficient causality of the sort that responsibility is attached to. For example, if Andy is the father of Opie then Barney cannot be the father.I'm finding it incogent to suppose that if X causes something, let's say, Y, and Y causes Z, that X did not cause Z.
You're probably already aware of it, but in metaphysics there are two different types of causal series... per accidens causal series and per se causal series. The 'First Cause' can be the per se cause without necessarily being the per accidens cause. Hence it's possible for God to be the first cause and at the same time for us humans to have free will.But if X causes all things, then the effects that X causes can also be causes of further effects, just as X planned. Y is an effect of causes, and whether by immediate cause, or by means of secondary (intermediate) causes, of First Cause. It may be a long chain of means, by which God causes all things, but it is a simple logic.
Electrons and Photons go back a long way. Stars burn out and produces a key element "gold" for electrical transmitting in the human body and brain function and is also for supporting the joints.I do in fact reject physical determinism as well. Not dogmatically tho. I mean, I dont know for sure that physical determinism isnt real. Same with divine determinism. They both simply seem rationally unsupported to me, as well as undesirable. But I could be wrong.
With physical determinism Im not finding room for my will to be the true origin point of any decision. In this case I do have something called "will" for sure. Its the various mental inclinations of the organism "me". But all of those boil down to physical results.
I think of divine determinism the same way. The concept "determinism" is absolute. It implies one outcome based on one initial state. And the deity sets the initial state. I dont even think a basic reading of the Bible supports this, with God making corrections, changing course, even as a result of persuasion from humans.
I do think the behavior of most of the universe simply follows from physical properties. Elements combine. Planets go round, But I think conscious minds like ours are some emergent new thing which contain the potential for a new origin point of action.
Show me anywhere in the Bible where God wants us to disobey him. That is totally opposed to everything the Bible represents and teaches us. We know what God "wants" from actually reading the Bible. Show me the Bibles that you have wore out from reading them."Wants"? What do we know of what God wants
Does Aquinas also destroy the logic that if a thing descends causally from first cause, that it is, regardless of arguments as to responsibility, nonetheless caused by first cause?Yes, this is exactly right. Here is what Aquinas says:
"Free-will is the cause of its own movement, because by his free-will man moves himself to act."
But within this argument by Aquinas, perhaps a resolution to our differences can be found, in that his description of the necessity of "will" ("free-will", he says) for responsibility, and for value to such things as counsels and rewards etc, is based on the difference between brute instinct and reason. The truth is, that [at least some] animals have reason, to some degree, and not just brute instinct; and so, I wonder within myself, if God sees, in comparison to himself, a similar difference concerning our ability to reason, (i.e. not just in degree of knowledge and understanding of data), as Aquinas sees between humans and animals.In the same article:
"Man has free-will: otherwise counsels, exhortations, commands, prohibitions, rewards, and punishments would be in vain. In order to make this evident, we must observe that some things act without judgment; as a stone moves downwards; and in like manner all things which lack knowledge. And some act from judgment, but not a free judgment; as brute animals. For the sheep, seeing the wolf, judges it a thing to be shunned, from a natural and not a free judgment, because it judges, not from reason, but from natural instinct. And the same thing is to be said of any judgment of brute animals. But man acts from judgment, because by his apprehensive power he judges that something should be avoided or sought. But because this judgment, in the case of some particular act, is not from a natural instinct, but from some act of comparison in the reason, therefore he acts from free judgment and retains the power of being inclined to various things. For reason in contingent matters may follow opposite courses, as we see in dialectic syllogisms and rhetorical arguments. Now particular operations are contingent, and therefore in such matters the judgment of reason may follow opposite courses, and is not determinate to one. And forasmuch as man is rational is it necessary that man have a free-will."
I'm not sure 'per accidens' is the right term there, unless only 'contingent' is meant. But even 'contingent' I don't like, except to describe something as over against 'necessary'. Both 'contingent' and 'per accidens' are very human concepts, and assume that "otherwise could have happened". We don't know whether or not "otherwise could have happened". We only know that "otherwise" did not happen, (and in fact, that "otherwise" never has happened); (and, of course, we know that "necessary" has always happened). Abstract thought, besides the will, is one of the marks of rational beings. But abstractions are far from "necessary".----------
Your adversion to per accidens causality is beside the point. Sure, that the cue ball caused the 9-ball to drop into the pocket does not preclude the pool cue from causing the 9-ball to drop into the pocket. This is irrelevant to the argument durangoda gave. He is talking about immediate efficient causality of the sort that responsibility is attached to. For example, if Andy is the father of Opie then Barney cannot be the father.
In other words, "We find we must think so." (Not, "it is so")Here's an argument:
- A free act is self-caused by an agent. {Premise}
- If an event is self-caused by an agent then the agent decides whether to bring it about, and they are also able prevent the event from occurring by refraining from action. {From the definition of 'self-caused'}
- Therefore, Events which are freely caused by an agent are not infallible or inevitable. {From 1 & 2}
- Therefore, If an event is infallibly caused by God, then it is not freely caused by Jones. {From 3}
You're kidding, right? When I say, "what do we know of what God wants?", I'm not speaking of what we should or shouldn't do, but of our inability as mere fool humans to assess what it means for God to WANT something. You are beating a strawman. (No doubt with the best of intentions, though.)Show me anywhere in the Bible where God wants us to disobey him. That is totally opposed to everything the Bible represents and teaches us. We know what God "wants" from actually reading the Bible. Show me the Bibles that you have wore out from reading them. View attachment 330346
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