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Satan made Pharoah do bad things, so the ordinary people were made to suffer. Don't forget the other 6 plagues that killed people. The get out is the good ones went to heaven. Even though not christians.???????????????????
What about the people God smites? (like the first born children)
Satan made Pharoah do bad things, so the ordinary people were made to suffer. Don't forget the other 6 plagues that killed people. The get out is the good ones went to heaven. Even though not christians.
The problem with this thread is some do outrageous preaching that's bizarre. To counter it we have to show, using the bible, where they're wrong. Getting it closed for blaspheming or Apologetics.
Of Egypt? He send his angel to do that... good for shedding the responsibility.???????????????????
What about the people God smites? (like the first born children)
Chrillman, do you know what spiritual truth is? http://www.christianforums.com/threads/spiritual-knowledge.7905317/
Yes, spiritual truth can only come from the one true spirit, which is the Holly Spirit.
Perhaps English isn't you first language, or maybe that's just a typo, but this is holly:
You meant Holy Spirit. Just one "l".
eudaimonia,
Mark
Why does god allow satan to do this?
Which version of god is perfect?
So we are pure truth. What does that mean, other than we are here?
Changing your tune again?
Previously you stated:
Of course, you mean only the assumptions that are made by your opponents, don't you?
Because now and here, you claim that you can make a "safe" assumption - not by basing it on honest objective observations, but on not having been shown a reason to assume otherwise.
But consider: it seems far more reasonable to assume that perfect existence would not exclude the cessation of this existence. And if you don't have a reason that perfect existence should not cease, I am safe to assume that you are wrong and I am right. Following your current "logic" of course.
Say, do you really not see how much you are contradicting your own claims, just so that you don't have to admit an error?
There is no contradiction.
I called you out for your contradictions, because I was able to show where you first said one thing, then a contradicting thing, then something else... you keep doing it.
I havn't said anything here that contradicted another of my statements. The contradiction you perceive comes from your own views, not mine.
So the "very first contradiction" I made is that I contradict you. Well, that is something that can be safely assumed.
You made another "safe assumption" just now in this thread... that, as long as I cannot disprove you, you are correct? When are you going to back that up with honest objective observations?`
Then, this "only safe assumption" you made wasn't that impressive. Debating as the sole Christian in a thread about perfection with atheists... the chance that an atheist would bring up God would be rather high. No big feat here... and even then it took over 60 posts until your trap caught something.
And finally: you got your answer. If you still claim that "an answer isn't given", you will have lost even the last remains of honesty.
That doesn't mean a lot. It could be anything you say.Yes, spiritual truth can only come from the one true spirit, which is the Holy Spirit. This is Gods direct connection to us in this fallen world through Jesus Christ. If you don't have Christ you don't have access to spiritual truth. This is a truth that all true Christians will proclaim, thus proving the consistency of those in Christ.
So god wants us to have free will, and wants satan to punish us for using it. And he sent Jesus to put things right, which were wrong because of satan's free will. And everything is fine now.God allows satan to do this because God does not control free will because if He did it would not be free will. Instead what God does is use good free will to destroy bad free will. God sent Jesus to freely choose to become a sacrifice for all sins caused by evil which is caused by satan's bad free will. In doing this Jesus has pleased God greatly and God has conquered evil, death and sin through what Jesus freely chose to do and now Jesus has been given all authority in heaven and earth for what He freely chose to do. Good will destroys evil will, its as simple as that.
So god wants us to have free will, and wants satan to punish us for using it. And he sent Jesus to put things right, which were wrong because of satan's free will. And everything is fine now.
Because he kills so many. I chose Evolution after believing in Creation. since then with my free will I have learned so much more about Evolution. I also use my free will to study Creationism. But can't find any evidence for it. Do you have any real evidence?Why must you say satan punishes us for using our free will? Satan doesn't want us to think we have free will to chose, he wants us to think we're just the result of a random event of nature and that our free will is just an illusion.
So does religion, after I accept Jesus came to Earth to save us, allow me to use my free will?If you use your free will to accept what is true, which is that God came in the form of a man(Jesus) to conquer death, then God will reward you for using your free will to accept this truth. Ultimately, satan has no power over you if you believe in Jesus. Again, this is the main message of Christianity and if you really stop to be honestly objective and think about all this, it does make sense. Its not difficult to believe that there are beings out there with higher intelligence than ourselves(satan), what is hard to believe is that there is a being that is truth itself. He calls Himself "I am".
Because he kills so many. I chose Evolution after believing in Creation. since then with my free will I have learned so much more about Evolution. I also use my free will to study Creationism. But can't find any evidence for it. Do you have any real evidence?
So does religion, after I accept Jesus came to Earth to save us, allow me to use my free will?
Yes!Did Jesus save us?
I am being honestly objective and come to the conclusion that with all the religions, all the sub sects of those religions. all the religions long gone. That it's impossible to claim which one is right.
Who of these is right, Hubbard, Miscavige, Smith, Young, Russell, Rutherford, Jones, Miller, Constantin, Pope Leo X, Luther, Paul, Jesus, etc. Because everyone of them has a different version of what we should do.
You seem to be coming up with a new version yourself.
I have mountains of evidence to prove evolution. No need for words. If religion saved you then good. I have no need of being saved.The only evidence I have is my own testimony and the testimony of countless others who proclaim Jesus was and is God. Honestly, its up to you see that I am being honest and its up to you to believe my testimony that Jesus is God because he personally saved me from evil destruction.
Do you have free will to examine real evidence and make a free deduction from it, one not ordered by the bible?Do I appear to have free will to proclaim what I believe to be true?
So there is no need for more preaching. And satan has left.Yes!
The only sense I get from them is that though Jesus was a good man, he failed to convince the people that mattered. Religion has always been a tool of evil men to rule, gain wealth and oppress. With that evidence my free will forces me to question what any religious man says. And when it comes to believing in what can't be proved. I don't believe.Believe the only one that actually makes sense when you honestly think about it. This is all God expects, belief. Once he has your belief He can then teach you His truth.
Claiming and being are not the same.The only one who claimed to be God in human flesh. Jesus.
Maybe I did. I understood the power it gave men to use people.Maybe you didn't have a full understanding of Christianity back when you claimed to be Christian. I don't blame you for not finding understanding by asking those who don't fully understand. I claim to be a true Christian and I claim to have understanding of Christianity that does make sense. This understanding is given to me because I've trusted in Jesus through the toughest times of my life and I continue to trust.
No, my friend. I understand that you rather attack me than accept your own failures, but you are wrong here. For the first part of that statement for a reason you claimed as your own... for the second part simply because of what you are.If you deny that you're making a false assumption right here in the beginning, then you are clearly the dishonest one.
So, as long as you cannot give me a reason why I am wrong, I am safe to assume that I am right. Correct? Your reasoning.Why shouldn't I assume that perfect existence can not include the cessation of existence? It seems far more reasonable to assume perfect existence would be just perfect, no reason to cease. Again if you have a reason that perfect existence should cease, please explain it, otherwise I'm safe to assume you're wrong.
And justifiedly so. Our views of "existence" are different.I even pointed it out right here in the beginning in an attempt to keep you from assuming my view of existence as being different than yours. Yet you continued assuming.
No, and this is where we differ. My understandung of "perfect reality" involves only one thing: existence.
I have good reason to assume, thank you. Read above.Try being honestly objective and just ask questions, don't assume, unless you have good reason to assume, but if your assumptions turn out to be wrong, you'd better be ready to fess up about it, or else risk losing all respect.
And if all fails, play the persecution card. You are not "hated" because you are chosen, or because you are not "of this world"... or even because Jesus was hated.As a Christian in this fallen world, I don't expect to be loved by those who don't love Christ.
John 15:18-19
"If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you."
Obviously, I don't want you to hate me and I don't think you do at this point, but I do want you to understand what Christians are trying to do and that is express the love of Christ and reveal the truth to those willing to accept it. I'm trying to understand the mind of atheists so I help them understand, but ultimately it comes down to the atheists to accept what they believe is true about life.
Satan doesn't want us to think we have free will to chose, he wants us to think we're just the result of a random event of nature and that our free will is just an illusion.
No, my friend. I understand that you rather attack me than accept your own failures, but you are wrong here. For the first part of that statement for a reason you claimed as your own... for the second part simply because of what you are.
First point: you are not the arbiter of truth. You don't have the authority or the wisdom to simply declare your position as correct, and other positions as incorrect.
You yourself said, in a post that I now quote again, that you can "safely assume", as long as you are not shown wrong.
So, as long as you cannot give me a reason why I am wrong, I am safe to assume that I am right. Correct? Your reasoning.
Second point: I have a reason for my assumption. You might not like it, you might not want to consider it, but it exists.
Objectively (and honestly): can something be "better" than it is? I say: no, it cannot. The "thing" as it is exists. The "thing" as it is imagine to be - "better" or "more perfect" - does not. If it did, it would be the better "thing".
Change and extrapolations for future events are no exception or contradiction to that: a "thing" can change. It can even get closer to the subjective standard of "better" or "more perfect". But at that point, it will again be what it is.
So, nothing can be better than it is. Something that is better than its existing state does not exists. If something cannot be better than it is, it is perfect. All existence is perfect, because nothing else exists.
There you have the reason. My assumption is not false.
Third point: I am not the clearly dishonest one here. I stand by my statements. My statements do not contradict.
My statements and assumptions may be false... but I do not deliberatly hide that. My statements are based on your standard of objectivity and honesty.
So my assumption is not false because you disagree with me. I am not dishonest because I disagree with you.
And justifiedly so. Our views of "existence" are different.
It is obvious from your postings. You kept talking about "society" or "the perfect society". You talk about the circumstances within our existence.
I on the other hand made it clear from the start:
I have good reason to assume, thank you. Read above.
And as for "losing all respect" if my assumptions turn out to be wrong... well, if they do, I will "fess up". As yet, you haven't done anything to show they are wrong.
Now you on the other hand have repeatedly contradicted yourself - and I have shown that, with your own words. It is there, for all to read.
Yet it doesn't seem that the threat of "losing all respect" means anything to you. So why should I bother, to hold the respect of someone who isn't worthy of respect?
And if all fails, play the persecution card. You are not "hated" because you are chosen, or because you are not "of this world"... or even because Jesus was hated.
You are "hated" - in real terms that means "criticized and notified of your errors" - because you are wrong - obviously wrong - and unable to admit it.
God allows satan to do this because God does not control free will because if He did it would not be free will. Instead what God does is use good free will to destroy bad free will. God sent Jesus to freely choose to become a sacrifice for all sins caused by evil which is caused by satan's bad free will. In doing this Jesus has pleased God greatly and God has conquered evil, death and sin through what Jesus freely chose to do and now Jesus has been given all authority in heaven and earth for what He freely chose to do. Good will destroys evil will, its as simple as that.
God sent Jesus to freely choose to become a sacrifice for all sins caused by evil which is caused by satan's bad free will.
In doing this Jesus has pleased God greatly and God has conquered evil, death and sin
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
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