Near death experiences—Can we learn anything from them?

Derf · Oct 8, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Jesus described the realm of the dead (Sheol/the Grave) in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. Was he being misleading, or telling the truth?

Did He? Or was He anthropomorphizing the state of death?

Derf · Oct 8, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Physically, or spiritually? (obvious answer)

Obvious indeed! Physically.

Saint Steven · Oct 8, 2021

Derf said:
Obvious indeed! Physically.

That ate thereof on the last day of their lives? What?

Saint Steven · Oct 8, 2021

Derf said:
Did He? Or was He anthropomorphizing the state of death?

That's a big word. Could you unpack that for us? Thanks.

Derf · Oct 8, 2021

Saint Steven said:
That ate thereof on the last day of their lives? What?

Not “on”—“in” the last day.

Original Happy Camper · Oct 8, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I am familiar with SDA doctrine, yes.

You still believe this, do you not? Scripture below. (KJV)
What day did they die? (the day they ate thereof) Explain.

Genesis 2:17 KJV
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Glad you asked

GOD is speaking and sin had not entered the garden yet.

From GODS perspective what is a day?

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

They died within the first 1,000years (one day to GOD)

GOD does not lie we just misinterpret his words

Saint Steven · Oct 8, 2021

Derf said:
Not “on”—“in” the last day.

But isn't the next day "out"?

Original Happy Camper · Oct 8, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Jesus described the realm of the dead (Sheol/the Grave) in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. Was he being misleading, or telling the truth?

It is a parable, do you agree with that or do you take it literally?

Original Happy Camper · Oct 8, 2021

Saint Steven said:
But isn't the next day "out"?

do not understand your "out" please explain.

KJV says "in" thus they died "in" the first 1,000 years from GODS perspective

Saint Steven · Oct 8, 2021

Original Happy Camper said:
Glad you asked

GOD is speaking and sin had not entered the garden yet.

From GODS perspective what is a day?

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

They died within the first 1,000years (one day to GOD)

GOD does not lie we just misinterpret his words

Are you claiming that Adam was informed about your quotation from Peter?
How is the day measured in Genesis chapter one? (sun down/sun up)

Saint Steven · Oct 8, 2021

Original Happy Camper said:
It is a parable, do you agree with that or do you take it literally?

It's a story. I take it literally, for the most part.

Derf · Oct 8, 2021

Saint Steven said:
But isn't the next day "out"?

And they were…

Saint Steven · Oct 8, 2021

Derf said:
And they were…

Dead according to you.

Original Happy Camper · Oct 8, 2021

we are to far apart on theology

Have a great day

Francis Drake · Oct 8, 2021

Derf said:
Would it be ok if two or three people saw two or three different murders by two or three different people? And then we can convict all three as murderers?

I’m not so sure it can work that way.

You are being deliberately obtuse here. In reality, such events would merely prove that murders do happen.
(Or bad things happen in threes!)

Derf · Oct 8, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Dead according to you.

Out…like a burnt out light. (Yes, dead)

Derf · Oct 8, 2021

Francis Drake said:
You are being deliberately obtuse here. In reality, such events would merely prove that murders do happen.
(Or bad things happen in threes!)

Not trying to be obtuse. If we want the facts of a particular event, it helps to have multiple witnesses of that particular event. We might be able to trust a single witness, but as with dreams, it’s hard to know what’s real and what’s a dream.

Derf · Oct 8, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Dead according to you.

They weren’t dead according to you??

Der Alte · Oct 8, 2021

Original Happy Camper said:
It is a parable, do you agree with that or do you take it literally?

Luke 16:19-31 Is not in the proper structure of a parable. A parable is used to explain something unknown/not understood by comparing it to something known/understood. For example,

Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

There is no "X is like unto to Y" in Luke 16:19-31
This story is not introduced as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.
The word "parable" occurs 32 times in the NT. Jesus identifies parables 5 times.
Matthew 13:18, Matthew 21:33, Matthew 24:32, Matthew 4:13, Matthew 13:28.
The other 17 times the writer identifies the parables.
Luk 16:19-31 might be some other figure of speech, I'm not sure which one, but it is not a parable.
…..All of the identified parables are anonymous; a certain widow, a certain man, a certain landowner etc. The story of Lazarus and the rich man mentions three specific actual persons by name Lazarus, Abraham and Moses and prophets who were specific persons.
If Abraham was not in the place Jesus named then Jesus lied.
The story is not in the form of a parable. A parable is used to explain something unknown/not understood by comparing it to something known/understood. For example,

Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

There is no "X is like unto to Y" comparison in Luke 16:19-31
The story is not introduced as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.
The word "parable" occurs 32 times in the NT. Jesus identifies parables 5 times.
Matthew 13:18, Matthew 21:33, Matthew 24:32, Matthew 4:13, Matthew 13:28.
The other 17 times the writer identifies the parables.
Luk 16:19-31 might be some other figure of speech, but it is not a parable.
All of the identified parables are anonymous; a certain widow, a certain man, a certain landowner etc. The story of Lazarus and the rich man mentions three specific actual persons by name Lazarus, Abraham and Moses and prophets who were specific persons.
If Abraham was not in the place Jesus named then Jesus lied.
What most folks don’t know about the rich man he violated a specific commandment.

Deuteronomy 15:7-8
7 If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
8 But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.

All of the ECF who quoted Luk 16:19-31considered it to be factual.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection. But he figuratively designates the vulgar rabble, attached to ephemeral pleasure, flourishing for a little, loving ornament, loving praise, and being everything but truth-loving, good for nothing but to be burned with fire. “There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet,
enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the hay. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.

Derf · Oct 9, 2021

Thanks for posting those accounts. The problem I have with them, is that they all seem to use the account of Lazarus and Dives to bolster the position they already held. Read them and you’ll see it. There is no attempt to find another way to understand it. But that’s eisegesis. Here’s an example:

Der Alte said:
For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.

Are there other ways to read it? I’d say yes, even besides the possibility that it is only a parable (I tend to think it’s no more than half parable, personally).

What if Jesus is talking about a state of the dead AFTER judgment? Remember that the final judgment comes after death, and after resurrection. This is something Jesus affirmed. So the penalty, if any deemed necessary from judgment, is executed against a resurrected body, one that once more has fingers and tongue, memory and emotions. Then it makes sense that the rich man is tormented—he has already been judged. The biggest objection I can think of is the timing: the rich man thinks his request to send Lazarus back from the dead would happen in time to save his brothers. The 1/2 parable nature of the story could easily take care of that problem.

Near death experiences—Can we learn anything from them?

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

Well-Known Member

One of GODS Children I am a historicist

You can call me Steve

One of GODS Children I am a historicist

One of GODS Children I am a historicist

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

Well-Known Member

You can call me Steve

One of GODS Children I am a historicist

Returning adventurer.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency