Neanderthals

The Barbarian · Oct 22, 2022

RileyG said:
Human but no homo sapien.

That is still being argued. Neandertals are either a very closely-related species, or they are a different sub-species of our own. Hard to say, but given that they shared genes pretty much everywhere they encountered us, I suspect that they are H. sapiens, just a different race.

RileyG · Oct 22, 2022

The Barbarian said:
That is still being argued. Neandertals are either a very closely-related species, or they are a different sub-species of our own. Hard to say, but given that they shared genes pretty much everywhere they encountered us, I suspect that they are H. sapiens, just a different race.

Fascinating

returnn23 · Oct 31, 2022

Neanderthals could interbreed with so-called modern humans, making them fully human. Some people alive today have Neanderthal DNA.

Science | AAAS

The Barbarian · Oct 31, 2022

returnn23 said:
Neanderthals could interbreed with so-called modern humans, making them fully human. Some people alive today have Neanderthal DNA.

Anatomically modern humans, Neanderthals, and a number of other species of Homo all qualify as "fully human." It is not settled that Neandertals are of our own species, although the fact that we often shared genes suggests that it is so. The interbreeding of closely-related species is a common thing, however.

I do think Neanderthals qualify as H. sapiens, the two races being an outgroup for other species of human.

returnn23 · Oct 31, 2022

I do not believe that is true. In the 1960s, paintings of Neanderthals were published. They were shown as being quite different from modern humans. As the decades passed, further artwork showed them becoming more and more like modern humans. Then it was reported that Neanderthals buried their dead. Most recently, cave art was discovered that was attributed to Neanderthals.

World's Oldest Cave Art Found—And Neanderthals Made It

The Barbarian · Oct 31, 2022

returnn23 said:
I do not believe that is true. In the 1960s, paintings of Neanderthals were published. They were shown as being quite different from modern humans.

They were quite different from anatomically modern humans. However, since we've gotten to sequence their genomes, it is clear that they are very closely related to us. Closely enough to qualify as a likely subspecies (race). As you probably know, there is only one biological human race today, but it was not always so.

And they were shorter, stronger, and less able to throw things than anatomically modern humans. They had larger brains, but this is mostly or completely due to their much larger muscles. They did have differently shaped brains, which might indicate different mental abilities. And they lacked chins, retaining the "simian shelf", internal bracing of the lower jaw.

returnn23 · Oct 31, 2022

I do not believe this. As I wrote, as time passed, they became more and more human, buried their dead, and made cave art. Look at the skull shapes of Asians, Africans and Europeans. A Neanderthal skull and being more muscular fits right in. Those who believe evolution can modify brain size, which would require a larger skull to accommodate it, are only guessing and reaching conclusions. The idea that 'evolution' can upgrade any organism is unproven. Where did the information come from? The information to enlarge not just the brain but the skull as well. There is no evidence a random, non-goal directed process can do this.

The Barbarian · Oct 31, 2022

returnn23 said:
I do not believe this.

That's the funny thing about reality. It doesn't care what we think.

returnn23 said:
As I wrote, as time passed, they became more and more human, buried their dead, and made cave art.

That happened a long time before Neanderthals died out. And later ones looked less like anatomically modern humans than early ones.

returnn23 said:
Look at the skull shapes of Asians, Africans and Europeans.

All of them are clearly of one race, as opposed to the Neanderthal skulls which are of a different race.

All modern humans have chins, for example, and lack the Neadertal "bun" on the occiptial skull. And they are smaller and rounder.

returnn23 said:
The idea that 'evolution' can upgrade any organism is unproven.

Even many creationists now admit that natural selection can drive evolution to increased fitness. "Upgrade" is not a scientific term. Fitness counts only in terms of environment.

returnn23 said:
Where did the information come from?

Mutation, recombination, and natural selection. As you might know, any new mutation in a population increases the information in that population. Would you like to see the numbers for a simple example?

returnn23 said:
The information to enlarge not just the brain but the skull as well.

Well, as you learned, Neanderthals had larger brains and skulls than we do.

returnn23 said:
There is no evidence a random, non-goal directed process can do this.

That was Darwin's great discovery. It's not random.

ViaCrucis · Nov 10, 2022

FaithT said:
So were they humans?

If we define humans as Homo sapiens sapiens, then no. If we define anything of the genus Homo as human, then yes.

-CryptoLutheran

returnn23 · Nov 10, 2022

Neanderthals were able to interbreed with so-called modern humans. That means they were fully human.

Oldest DNA from a Homo sapiens reveals surprisingly recent Neanderthal ancestry

ViaCrucis · Nov 11, 2022

returnn23 said:
Neanderthals were able to interbreed with so-called modern humans. That means they were fully human.

Oldest DNA from a Homo sapiens reveals surprisingly recent Neanderthal ancestry

It really just depends on how strict we are with the term "human". Neanderthals weren't Homo sapiens sapiens, which makes them either a distinct but very closely related species of Homo that could interbreed with Homo sapiens; or a sub-species of Homo sapiens like ourselves. Whether they are classified as Homo neanderthalis or Homo sapiens neanderthalis is, from what I understand, still a matter of continued debate.

If the question goes beyond mere biology and academic questions of cladistics, i.e. to what it means to be human in a biblical and theological sense. It ultimately becomes purely speculatory without any siginificant real world implication: There aren't any surviving lineages of Homo or even Homo sapiens apart from us around. But I certainly don't have any problem recognizing the fully humanity of other hominids--in the sense of their being fully human persons, bearers of the Divine Image, created in God's likeness, etc.

Because it is firmly within the realm of pure speculation, it isn't altogether different a question than the question of whether there are extraterrestrial intelligent/sapient life somewhere and what role they have within the grand narrative of God's salvation and redemption of creation.

God alone knows. And that's okay.

-CryptoLutheran

returnn23 · Nov 11, 2022

Neanderthals buried their dead with artifacts and made cave art.

public hermit · Nov 11, 2022

returnn23 said:
Neanderthals were able to interbreed with so-called modern humans. That means they were fully human.

Oldest DNA from a Homo sapiens reveals surprisingly recent Neanderthal ancestry

Do all modern humans with European ancestry have Neanderthal DNA? I thought I had read that, but I'm not seeing that in the article you posted.

ETA: I guess something like 20% exists in modern humans but maybe only 2% in a given human.

The Barbarian · Nov 11, 2022

The Boomerang Was Used 20,000 Years Ago By Stone Age People
The Boomerang Was Used 20,000 Years Ago By Stone Age People - Ancient Pages

BobRyan · Nov 11, 2022

FaithT said:
AiG, Creation.com, and ICR say that they were human too,

Indeed they do..

Some Neanderthal skeletons exhibit skeletal changes that are consistent with rickets. Rickets is a vitamin D deficiency.

The Barbarian · Nov 11, 2022

public hermit said:
Do all modern humans with European ancestry have Neanderthal DNA? I thought I had read that, but I'm not seeing that in the article you posted

Most people of non-African descent have some Neanderthal genes. Southeast Asians and Oceanic peoples usually have Denisovan genes. It now appears that the genes that let Tibetans thrive at very high elevations, are Denisovan. Denisovans are likely a subspecies of H. sapiens.

The Barbarian · Nov 11, 2022

BobRyan said:
Some Neanderthal skeletons exhibit skeletal changes that are consistent with rickets. Rickets is a vitamin D deficiency.

No. That was a conclusion by a dentist who fancied himself a paleontologist. Rickets is a disease that is characterized by weak bones, often leading to bowed legs. And Neanderthal bones were much more robust than our own. He merely assumed the bowed legs of Neanderthals were caused by rickets.

Neandertals were either a subspecies with us as another, or they were just barely a separate species. Genetically, they are on the border of speciation. There were other species of human, of course, who were definitely not H. sapiens.

BobRyan · Nov 11, 2022

The Barbarian said:
No. That was a conclusion by a dentist who fancied himself a paleontologist. Rickets is a disease that is characterized by weak bones, often leading to bowed legs. And Neanderthal bones were much more robust than our own. He merely assumed the bowed legs of Neanderthals were caused by rickets

He assumed human DNA is noticeable - and the fact is that we have humans to this very day with bowed legs that also have strong bones.

The Truth About Neanderthal DNA - Today's Creation Moment.

"Neanderthal skeletons have the same number of bones as ours. It is true that their bones were thicker and stronger than ours. Their bodies were also stockier and, typically, their arms and legs were shorter in proportion to the rest of the body. However, these differences are also found in modern humans that live in cold climates, as many Neanderthals did. In a cold climate a stockier body and shorter limbs reduce body heat loss. Neanderthals that lived in warmer climates had longer arms and legs.

We know of at least 36 instances where Neanderthals buried their dead, often with flowers and other items suggesting religious ceremony. One Neanderthal grave also contained a small bone flute. No animal makes tools "

All modern humans have Neanderthal DNA, new research finds | CNN

The Barbarian · Nov 11, 2022

No. That was a conclusion by a dentist who fancied himself a paleontologist. Rickets is a disease that is characterized by weak bones, often leading to bowed legs. And Neanderthal bones were much more robust than our own. He merely assumed the bowed legs of Neanderthals were caused by rickets.

BobRyan said:
He assumed human DNA is noticeable - and the fact is that we have humans to this very day with bowed legs that also have strong bones.

What he assumed was that Neanderthals had rickets because their legs tended to be bowed. And that's risible, considering that their bones are much more robust than our own. Being a dentist, I suppose he didn't know how that works. He was speculating about things he really doesn't understand.

BobRyan · Nov 11, 2022

The Barbarian said:
No. That was a conclusion by a dentist who fancied himself a paleontologist. Rickets is a disease that is characterized by weak bones, often leading to bowed legs. And Neanderthal bones were much more robust than our own. He merely assumed the bowed legs of Neanderthals were caused by rickets.

What he assumed was that Neanderthals had rickets because their legs tended to be bowed. And that's risible, considering that their bones are much more robust than our own. Being a dentist, I suppose he didn't know how that works. He was speculating about things he really doesn't understand.

Notice it said "many" not all. It was not a claim that all cases were problems with rickets.

In any case - plenty of folks walking around today that are about 5 feet tall and have bowed legs that don't have Rickets

Neanderthals

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