Nature vs Nurture and Other Stuff...

[Inkachu]

So in the thread entitled "Dating, marriage, divorce and social norms..." the topic started veering off into ideas about what various people find "liberating" or normal or freeing based on their cultures. For example, are people in arranged marriages in India or Korea perfectly content and satisfied because that's what they grow up preparing for, and that's what they're used to being around? Do we find liberty and happiness in what we're familiar with and what we see every day? Is it unrealistic to say that some people would crave "liberation" via a totally new culture and way of life?

Sdmsanjose said he was intrigued by this statement that I made in the other thread:

I live within the current culture of the United States. I don't find it very liberating. I don't find it comfortable most of the time.

I've said before on CF that I've always been a black sheep. Always feeling sort of out of place. Always going against the flow. Peoples' opinions of what I should be or do or say have very little impact on what I choose to be or do.

While I have no doubt that I could've been shaped and guided in many directions as a child if I'd lived in another culture, my base, inner, inherent personality is extremely strong and passionate. And I can't help thinking that even if I'd learned to go through the motions of a more conforming, strict culture where my identity was determined by someone other than myself, there would always have been some spark of individualism and non-conformity that would never have sat well with me and would always have caused some kind of unrest deep within me.

America is definitely a country of conformity in a lot of ways. While cultures can vary depending on where in the country you live, people who blaze their own trail, so to speak, tend to be looked at as weird or odd or even snobby, as if the average existence just isn't good enough for them.

I'm not sure where this thread might go, but here it is... bring your musings about nature vs nurture, cultures, expectations, etc...

GO!

 

[DZoolander]

Well, the biggest thing that I can think of that's kinda relevant to the venue (being that we're on CF) would be the focus on sexual sin relative to other sin(s).

All across the country you see huge gatherings of people taking chastity vows, fathers taking their daughters out on mock marriages and making their daughters promise to save their virginity or making weird pronouncements about how they "own" their sexuality until later (once again...creeppppyyyyy), this, that, etc...

That's all the Christian norm. Why can't there be "I vow not to be an self centered jerk" vows and thousands of people getting together to make that vow? I'd argue that kind of nonsense has far greater impact upon people's lives than whether or not "Johnny" and "Suzy" go for a little afternoon delight.

Yet - everything revolves around sex.

Tell someone you can't tolerate your spouse any more - that you need to leave them forevermore...but you'll remain "married" - they're cool with that. Heck - I've seen advice of a similar nature offered on here. Tell 'em you're gonna get divorced - and whoa - out comes the religious zeal.

I'd propose to you the only difference between the two is that with divorce - you're opening the door to possibly having sex with someone else and feeling ok about it.

That's the crux of it - and the issue that people REALLY have with divorce. "You want to possibly have sex with someone other than the one you made the vow to (regardless of circumstance)". No more, no less. They don't care about the totality of obligations within marriage - really - except the "obligation of who you're gonna have sex with."

Heck - come to think of it - I'm really having a hard time coming up with an issue that Christians feel strongly about that doesn't have something to do with someone's junk.

...

and along that line...my position that sexual sin isn't really on my scope any more than others seem to feel about shaking their fists at another driver...I suppose that's my thing...lol

 

[Inkachu]

All across the country you see huge gatherings of people taking chastity vows, fathers taking their daughters out on mock marriages and making their daughters promise to save their virginity or making weird pronouncements about how they "own" their sexuality until later (once again...creeppppyyyyy), this, that, etc...

Yeah, this absolutely weirds me out. Granted, I was abused by my father, so that definitely adds to the "ick" factor for me, but it's obviously still bizarre to other people as well.

That's all the Christian norm. Why can't there be "I vow not to be an self centered jerk" vows and thousands of people getting together to make that vow?

I think this is a really great idea, FWIW

I'd propose to you the only difference between the two is that with divorce - you're opening the door to possibly having sex with someone else and feeling ok about it.

That's the crux of it - and the issue that people REALLY have with divorce. "You want to possibly have sex with someone other than the one you made the vow to (regardless of circumstance)". No more, no less. They don't care about the totality of obligations within marriage - really - except the "obligation of who you're gonna have sex with."

Meh, I can't agree with this one. But then again, I can only speak for myself. Divorce implicates a LOT more to me than simply being free to have sex with another person. Honestly, that would be the last thing on my mind if I were dealing with someone going through a divorce (unless they were specifically divorcing for that reason and had told me so).

If other people equate "divorce" with "freedom to have sex with other people", I'd be interested to hear it.

Heck - come to think of it - I'm really having a hard time coming up with an issue that Christians feel strongly about that doesn't have something to do with someone's junk.

While I do believe that modern, western Christianity has a LOT of growing up to do regarding sex, I don't think all, or even most, Christian issues revolve around it. Maybe in your experience you've seen that... and that would be sad

 

[ValleyGal]

In another thread, CG stated that she believes we (genders of the same culture) are more alike than different. While I agree with that on a fundamental, human level, I disagree with regards to some physiological functions such as hormones and brain structures...and these can have significant impacts on behaviour and worldview, especially given the cultures we live in.

In my last developmental psychology course I took, it was taught that we are born with some gender differences, but a typical boy in one culture is the same as a typical boy in another culture (babies). Same for baby girls. If you take a newborn from Africa and raise baby in America, baby will grow up to be of American culture, with physical features of Africans.

Both my sociology classes as well as my psych classes (sociology is sociocultural trends across time and geography, and psychology is more specific to the individual, but studies are generalized according to curves), state that there is no more nature/nurture debate because the answer is that it is some of both. Now they are trying to figure out which parts are nature and which parts are nurture.

Nurture comes not only from the whole sociological and cultural context, but also from individual family culture as well. In America, this is as varied and different as the individuals in it. In other cultures, their families are run very similarly, as evidenced in the First Nations way of living before colonization - they had such communal living that people grew up similar because they all raised them the same way, all holding similar beliefs and values about what it meant to raise a family. Today, we are all very individual in what we believe about raising a family.

So in the end, we all start out from a basic genetic similarity with gender-specific qualities, and how these genetics are nurtured and taught make a difference in who the person becomes. Nature and nurture are conjoined twins.

 

[Inkachu]

All of this thinking is making my brain tired, lol.

 

[DZoolander]

Meh, I can't agree with this one. But then again, I can only speak for myself. Divorce implicates a LOT more to me than simply being free to have sex with another person. Honestly, that would be the last thing on my mind if I were dealing with someone going through a divorce (unless they were specifically divorcing for that reason and had told me so).

If other people equate "divorce" with "freedom to have sex with other people", I'd be interested to hear it.

Just out of curiosity - along that line I was taking there...

Let's say someone were to come on here (or go to you, or go to pretty much most Christians) and say:

"I really can't be with my husband any more. He's physically abusive, he cheats, he has no remorse, and I feel that I'm in danger.

I intend to leave - sever all ties - and move away...change my name...I intend to never see him again.

...but I won't divorce him, because I think divorce is wrong."

Would you be cool with that, and do you think most Christians would be cool with that?

...and if that was truly the case, what exactly (apart from the "leaving yourself open for remarriage/sex with another spouse") would be the difference then between divorce and what they were proposing?

 

[bluegreysky]

Well, my Indian coworker made her whole family angry back in the 1980's when she went with a regular white American guy and ran away and eloped with him. She was supposed to marry someone of her family's choosing. At least 27 years later she's still married to him and happy, with 2 kids.
Obviously if she was raised to prepare for a marriage to a man she didn't know, she decided to act on her own free will.

 

[Inkachu]

Just out of curiosity - along that line I was taking there...

Let's say someone were to come on here (or go to you, or go to pretty much most Christians) and say:

"I really can't be with my husband any more. He's physically abusive, he cheats, he has no remorse, and I feel that I'm in danger.

I intend to leave - sever all ties - and move away...change my name...I intend to never see him again.

...but I won't divorce him, because I think divorce is wrong."

Would you be cool with that, and do you think most Christians would be cool with that?

I'm sorry, but I can't answer for "most Christians", only myself.

I wouldn't agree with her decision - I'd think she was justified in seeking divorce. But if that was what SHE felt was right and acceptable to God based on her faith and her relationship with Him, I wouldn't argue or try to talk her out of it. And I'd pray that they might be reconciled someday, somehow.

...and if that was truly the case, what exactly (apart from the "leaving yourself open for remarriage/sex with another spouse") would be the difference then between divorce and what they were proposing?

Because she's also be keeping her heart, her emotions, her home, her privacy, etc... from another future relationship. She'd be emotionally and spiritually celibate, not just physically.

 

[Hetta]

Just out of curiosity - along that line I was taking there...

Let's say someone were to come on here (or go to you, or go to pretty much most Christians) and say:

"I really can't be with my husband any more. He's physically abusive, he cheats, he has no remorse, and I feel that I'm in danger.

I intend to leave - sever all ties - and move away...change my name...I intend to never see him again.

...but I won't divorce him, because I think divorce is wrong."

Would you be cool with that, and do you think most Christians would be cool with that?

...and if that was truly the case, what exactly (apart from the "leaving yourself open for remarriage/sex with another spouse") would be the difference then between divorce and what they were proposing?

I think that many Christians would think that was the right thing to do, in fact some would say (and I have seen them say it) that she should stick around and try to win him over, because she's his wife, gosh darn it. And also, what did she DO to provoke him. What is HER part in this.

As this isn't an advice thread and I assume it's okay to generalize about what I would say in this instance (I'll find out when it gets reported, right), I would tell that woman (or man) to divorce and move on. Yep, some abusers do repent and change, but very very few and far between. Let them go and do what they need to do to change, and show change, and that's fine - reconcile and I'll come and sing at your wedding. Or not, my singing's pretty bad, but I'll wear a nice hat. In the meantime, get on with your life as a single person and don't look back. Get counseling so that you heal properly. Be happy. Period.

 

[seeingeyes]

Just out of curiosity - along that line I was taking there...

Let's say someone were to come on here (or go to you, or go to pretty much most Christians) and say:

"I really can't be with my husband any more. He's physically abusive, he cheats, he has no remorse, and I feel that I'm in danger.

I intend to leave - sever all ties - and move away...change my name...I intend to never see him again.

...but I won't divorce him, because I think divorce is wrong."

Would you be cool with that, and do you think most Christians would be cool with that?

...and if that was truly the case, what exactly (apart from the "leaving yourself open for remarriage/sex with another spouse") would be the difference then between divorce and what they were proposing?

I would tell her that what she is proposing is divorce.

It saddens me that marriage is so often looked at as simple government status within the church. Good Lord, we should know better.

 

[seeingeyes]

So in the thread entitled "Dating, marriage, divorce and social norms..." the topic started veering off into ideas about what various people find "liberating" or normal or freeing based on their cultures. For example, are people in arranged marriages in India or Korea perfectly content and satisfied because that's what they grow up preparing for, and that's what they're used to being around? Do we find liberty and happiness in what we're familiar with and what we see every day? Is it unrealistic to say that some people would crave "liberation" via a totally new culture and way of life?

Sdmsanjose said he was intrigued by this statement that I made in the other thread:

I live within the current culture of the United States. I don't find it very liberating. I don't find it comfortable most of the time.

I've said before on CF that I've always been a black sheep. Always feeling sort of out of place. Always going against the flow. Peoples' opinions of what I should be or do or say have very little impact on what I choose to be or do.

While I have no doubt that I could've been shaped and guided in many directions as a child if I'd lived in another culture, my base, inner, inherent personality is extremely strong and passionate. And I can't help thinking that even if I'd learned to go through the motions of a more conforming, strict culture where my identity was determined by someone other than myself, there would always have been some spark of individualism and non-conformity that would never have sat well with me and would always have caused some kind of unrest deep within me.

America is definitely a country of conformity in a lot of ways. While cultures can vary depending on where in the country you live, people who blaze their own trail, so to speak, tend to be looked at as weird or odd or even snobby, as if the average existence just isn't good enough for them.

I'm not sure where this thread might go, but here it is... bring your musings about nature vs nurture, cultures, expectations, etc...

GO!

Strange people are my favorite people. They have the best stories.

Part of our culture seems to be believing that we are unique even when we are just like everyone else. When someone truly weird comes along, we don't know what to do with them.

 

[Inkachu]

When someone truly weird comes along, we don't know what to do with them.

Pretty much been my life story lol.

 

[DZoolander]

I would tell her that what she is proposing is divorce.

It saddens me that marriage is so often looked at as simple government status within the church. Good Lord, we should know better.

I agree - with both points.

Which is why it's always been odd for me to hear that type of advice given to people. I've heard people say (even here) stuff akin to that. "You can separate and leave for good - but it's the 'divorce' that's wrong"...

...and when someone takes that kind of stand...it leaves me wondering where exactly they're drawing distinctions at. Clearly, to me at least, if you take that kind of stand it's the "potential for future mates" that becomes the qualifying distinction. As was pointed out - it's a form of celibacy and therefore it's sex that is the issue.

 

[Inkachu]

Sex isn't the issue when I consider that kind of circumstance, but... *shrug*... everyone sees things differently.

 

[DZoolander]

Well, let's say hypothetically that in her "separation" she might meet the most wonderful, celibate, eunuch in the world. Someone she could depend on, live with, tell all her secrets to, confide in and carry on all of the other things we normally associate with marriage. Just no sex, and no desire for sex.

It's my belief that if that was a certainty - people wouldn't object to the living arrangement.

However, give the guy a libido and a working ding-a-ling, and they'd be up in arms about it.

 

[ChristianGolfer]

Regarding the "nature vs. nurture" aspect: It is our nature to develop via socialization. If we aren't socialized (nurtured) our brains simply do not develop. If we aren't around people who talk in our childhood, for example, our brains will never be able to develop the neural pathways necessary for language.

If you ever think about thinking, you realize that the very languages we speak shape and influence the thoughts that we think. The idioms we use, the words and their connotations, all influence the way we think about certain things. How could we even think if we didn't have language? How much does what we hear influence what we think about and how we think about it? And that's just one aspect of our culture.

As children, we learn and develop by conforming to what we see other people doing. From learning to walk and talk to learning how not to offend others with bodily functions to knowing when to use a fork vs. a spoon (or chopsticks). IMO, gender roles and marital dynamics are every bit as much learned behavior as eating with a fork. We learn by watching and copying what we see.


I'm a bit of a non-conformist too... but if I stop and think about it there are more ways in which I conform than in which I don't. I speak the same language as everyone around me. I wear pretty much the same clothing. As much as I get irritated by assigned gender roles when it comes to what we can or cannot do in our jobs, marriage and the church... I still wear my hair long, wear clothing from the women's section, occasionally wear makeup, paint my nails and generally conform to our culture's ideas of what a woman should look like.

I don't know where I'm going with this, lol. Just some of my thoughts on the nature of conformity.

 

[sdmsanjose]

By Inkchu

I live within the current culture of the United States. I don't find it very liberating. I don't find it comfortable most of the time.


America is definitely a country of conformity in a lot of ways. While cultures can vary depending on where in the country you live, people who blaze their own trail, so to speak, tend to be looked at as weird or odd or even snobby, as if the average existence just isn't good enough for them

Inkachu
What specially is not liberating in America for you?
Who thinks that you’re weird?
I don’t and I like a lot of your posts, you are level headed and honest.

Secondly, what your father did was horrible and you are very brave to tell us that.

 

[Inkachu]

Well, let's say hypothetically that in her "separation" she might meet the most wonderful, celibate, eunuch in the world. Someone she could depend on, live with, tell all her secrets to, confide in and carry on all of the other things we normally associate with marriage. Just no sex, and no desire for sex.

It's my belief that if that was a certainty - people wouldn't object to the living arrangement.

However, give the guy a libido and a working ding-a-ling, and they'd be up in arms about it.

I disagree, sorry! If she were still legally married, and wanted to live with this great, awesome, celibate other man, I think LOTS of Christians would object, myself included!!

 

[Inkachu]

Inkachu
What specially is not liberating in America for you?

The mindless idiocy of society in general? The expectations to conform. The lack of thinking "why" we do things or accept things. The whole lemming mentality of most people. I am very, very much a WHY person. I ask questions. I dig. I examine. Most people don't, and that frustrates me greatly lol. I have to be careful how I approach some things, because I'll have spent years thinking about an issue and the other person won't, and I can come on pretty strong with my opinions if I'm not careful I think I would have fit in great in ancient Greece, where THINKING and philosophy and questioning were welcomed! Picturing myself standing around with Aristotle or Plato or Socrates and pondering on life and existence sounds pretty sweet to me.

Who thinks that you’re weird? /quote]

Who doesn't? LOL People who like me or love me might say I'm "quirky" or "odd" or "unique" - you know, nicer words, but they all mean the same thing in the end I don't mind, I like being me!

I don’t and I like a lot of your posts, you are level headed and honest./quote]

I really try to be those things, too. And thank you, you are so kind to me


Secondly, what your father did was horrible and you are very brave to tell us that. [/QUOTE]

Thank you. It is what it is. He's never admitted to it or apologized for it, but he's tried to move past it, I think. He now has Alzheimer's and I doubt we'll ever have any sort of closer on that part of our lives, but I don't hold onto any anger towards him. It'll always be a painful and sad thing, and I don't think a person ever really "gets over" it, you just learn to let it go and live with it.

 

[sdmsanjose]

Inkachu
What specially is not liberating in America for you?

By Inkachu
The mindless idiocy of society in general? The expectations to conform. The lack of thinking "why" we do things or accept things. The whole lemming mentality of most people. I am very, very much a WHY person

Here is one of the whys that I have been puzzled about for years.

Why do I not have trouble with alcohol and drugs and some of my childhood fiends do?

We would go out on the weekends and drink and do a little weed for almost all of our teen years. Later when we got married, had children, etc some of my friends have struggled with alcohol and drugs for decades. Doug even shot himself and ended it all when he was in his 50s.

I do not get it. I was with them for years and the pros and cons of alcohol and drugs after the teens is a no brainer. Those guys were good guys and were not ‘Bad seed”. Yes it was fun in my teens to party and be carefree but the weed did not give me a huge bang and alcohol was never a good trade off. I would wake up in the morning and feel physically horrible and the fun the night before was not worth it.

I can understand the teen years but in our 20s, 30s and 40s some of them kept it up. I mean we had wives and children and work and all of that. What advantage did weed and alcohol have? In fact alcohol and drugs worked against being successful with marriage, children, and, a lot of other life issues. I am not Socrates, Plato, or Aristotle but even Steve Wonder could see the trade off with drugs, alcohol suck big time!

I am no goodie two shoes, that is not it at all. These guys were just like me, equal, and had good points. When I past my teens, got married, had children, and had to work I stopped all that nonsense in my 20s. Rudy got divorced and drank heavy until the day he died of a heart attack in his 50s, Jeff drank until his 50s then quit but he had done damage to his marriage and job, and Rafael drank so much he had to be hospitalized twice, lost two good jobs, had his wife leave him twice, and his daughter moved out of the house before she was18. He stopped after that for a few years and is now back at it. WHY? I do not get it!