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Natural Selection?

St_Worm2

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Does "Theistic Evolution" teach that life evolves in the same manner that standard evolutionary theory does, IOW, according to "natural selection" (or "the survival of the fittest")? If not, what does it teach?

Thanks!

--David
 
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Papias

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The short answer to your question is Yes.

Finer nuances are that in theistic evolution, God is explicitly the cause, creator and basis of this ongoing evolution. Nothing in theistic evolution contradicts the evidence.

Further reading can be found in many places - one good source is BioLogos: Science and faith in harmony

In Christ-

Papias
 
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St_Worm2

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The short answer to your question is Yes.

Finer nuances are that in theistic evolution, God is explicitly the cause, creator and basis of this ongoing evolution. Nothing in theistic evolution contradicts the evidence.

Further reading can be found in many places - one good source is BioLogos: Science and faith in harmony

In Christ-

Papias

Hi Papias, I took a quick look at the BioLogos website (thank you for that) and, as a result, I have another question that I'm hoping you can answer for me. It's an important one, to me anyway, and it's one that BioLogos said it could not answer.

How does TE address the issue of sin and evil in the world .. :scratch: It's easy enough to do if you take the first three chapters of Genesis literally, but how do you explain the universality of sin w/o first parents? Without them, who's to blame for the sin/evil which has beset our entire race?

BioLogos said that such a question is fodder for the theologians to wrestle with, but you're a Christian, so surely you've given this matter some thought. How did you answer that question for yourself?

Thanks for your help!

Yours and His,
David
 
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Papias

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How does TE address the issue of sin and evil in the world .. It's easy enough to do if you take the first three chapters of Genesis literally, but how do you explain the universality of sin w/o first parents? Without them, who's to blame for the sin/evil which has beset our entire race?

BioLogos said that such a question is fodder for the theologians to wrestle with, but you're a Christian, so surely you've given this matter some thought. How did you answer that question for yourself?

Sure. My answer is a pretty common TE answer, one supported by whole churches as well.

In short, original sin works much the same. To see it, think of a population of apes evolving and becoming more human.

As the whole community gradually evolves from ape to human, whatever arbitrary characteristic is used to define "being human", one individual will be the first to cross that line – including a line of “God divinely creating a soul” in one. At that point, his free will allows him to rebel against God, and disobey him. This results in the fall, and original sin, passed on to his kids. We can call this first creature to be given a soul the first human, Adam. God also gives a soul to Eve. Adam and his children are still part of a large community of many others - but none of the others have been given a soul, and are not fully human. As his children take spouses from the community, each generation has more and more people who are human, who are descendants of Adam, and who have souls (and original sin), until everyone is human.

Of course, all humans will be descended from Adam, just as they are all descended from others as well. Think of that mayflower club, which only allows members who are descended from the few people who came over from Europe on the mayflower. That club today has thousands of members, and in a few thousand years or so, literally everyone on earth will be descended from those on the mayflower. The same holds true for an individual, so long as they have a few kids - such as, say, Thomas Jefferson, who'd descendants today are in the many thousands of people. Thus, if you have a few kids, it is very likely that in a few thousand years, literally everyone on earth will be descended from you as well. If Adam was as recent as even 20,000 years ago, then this works fine - and even more so for an Adam 500,000 or farther back (don't confuse the real Adam with Y-chromosome Adam, that's a different idea).

It's easy enough to do if you take the first three chapters of Genesis literally,

But is it? I mean, the story is obviously symbolic all through it (Jesus never literally crushes Satan's skull, Satan never literally bites Jesus' foot, even the names "Adam" and "Eve" are symbols for "earth" and "mother", and so on).

If it were literally true, then it would mean that there was this magical fruit, and the magic of the fruit made people feel embarrassed. It seems obvious that even a literal reading has to ask "what was the cause of original sin?", because it seems silly to say that it was due to magical fruit. The "sin" seems to be rebelling against God - which is something anyone can do simply by refusing to acknowledge God's sovereignty - which is what any disobeying/rebelling is doing. So the story appears to be intended to be symbolic, leaving literalists with no reasonable explanation for original sin. If it were an unfortunate result of magical fruit, then would not a loving God have said "oh, the magic of the fruit - I can fix that." and made things as they were before? Or is the magical fruit really more powerful than God? No - it was about rebelling, not about magic, right?

Some may think that fruit with magic more powerful than God makes more sense than original sin being the act of rebelling - but not me.

Does that help?

In Christ-

Papias
 
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St_Worm2

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Sure. My answer is a pretty common TE answer, one supported by whole churches as well.

In short, original sin works much the same. To see it, think of a population of apes evolving and becoming more human.

As the whole community gradually evolves from ape to human, whatever arbitrary characteristic is used to define "being human", one individual will be the first to cross that line – including a line of “God divinely creating a soul” in one. At that point, his free will allows him to rebel against God, and disobey him. This results in the fall, and original sin, passed on to his kids. We can call this first creature to be given a soul the first human, Adam. God also gives a soul to Eve. Adam and his children are still part of a large community of many others - but none of the others have been given a soul, and are not fully human. As his children take spouses from the community, each generation has more and more people who are human, who are descendants of Adam, and who have souls (and original sin), until everyone is human.

Of course, all humans will be descended from Adam, just as they are all descended from others as well. Think of that mayflower club, which only allows members who are descended from the few people who came over from Europe on the mayflower. That club today has thousands of members, and in a few thousand years or so, literally everyone on earth will be descended from those on the mayflower. The same holds true for an individual, so long as they have a few kids - such as, say, Thomas Jefferson, who'd descendants today are in the many thousands of people. Thus, if you have a few kids, it is very likely that in a few thousand years, literally everyone on earth will be descended from you as well. If Adam was as recent as even 20,000 years ago, then this works fine - and even more so for an Adam 500,000 or farther back (don't confuse the real Adam with Y-chromosome Adam, that's a different idea).

Well that is certainly a different approach that could be a viable replacement for the literal view of Creation. I discussed this with another CF member about a year ago and thought the same thing when I heard what he had to say. I'll consider it again and get back to you with additional thoughts and/or questions if that's ok with you?

Now, as for speaking of a literal rendering of Genesis 1-3 being the easy explanation for the Fall, you replied:


But is it? I mean, the story is obviously symbolic all through it (Jesus never literally crushes Satan's skull, Satan never literally bites Jesus' foot, even the names "Adam" and "Eve" are symbols for "earth" and "mother", and so on).

The fact that there may be symbolism doesn't necessarily preclude its literalness, does it .. :scratch: After all, we have NT examples where Jesus calls Himself a "gate", and in another place, a "door", but I assume you believe Jesus was an actual man and not simply a mythological being used to make a point, yes? The big question for me is how far do we go in believing the Bible symbolic, IOW, where and how do we properly draw that line? You continue:

If it were literally true, then it would mean that there was this magical fruit, and the magic of the fruit made people feel embarrassed. It seems obvious that even a literal reading has to ask "what was the cause of original sin?", because it seems silly to say that it was due to magical fruit. The "sin" seems to be rebelling against God - which is something anyone can do simply by refusing to acknowledge God's sovereignty - which is what any disobeying/rebelling is doing. So the story appears to be intended to be symbolic, leaving literalists with no reasonable explanation for original sin. If it were an unfortunate result of magical fruit, then would not a loving God have said "oh, the magic of the fruit - I can fix that." and made things as they were before? Or is the magical fruit really more powerful than God? No - it was about rebelling, not about magic, right?

Some may think that fruit with magic more powerful than God makes more sense than original sin being the act of rebelling - but not me.

Again, I am a literalist of the OT in the same way I am of the NT (as I mentioned earlier, I believe the Gospels are literally true, but not every aspect of them is (i.e. - Jesus was never a literal door with hinges .. ^_^). So another problem I have is where and how do we begin to divorce ourselves from the mindset that the Bible is simply a "myth" and begin to hold that the Bible is a true and historically accurate document (with a spiritual twist, of course, for those who are in Christ).

BTW, I totally agree about the "magic fruit" thing. Whatever it was, the problem wasn't eating the fruit, the problem was disobedience. But even though I don't feel it's necessary to believe that the "magic fruit" was really a Granny Smith doesn't mean that I need to treat all of Genesis 1-11 as a myth, does it?

That said, several things seem clear to me from Genesis. First, VERY little was required of Adam and Eve (whoever you believe them to be) by God, only one thing actually, one commandment, "don't eat that apple" (or whatever it was). It is also clear that our perfect, sinless, upright parents, who were made in the image of God were incapable of doing even that much .. :doh: Beyond that, more thought and discussion will be necessary I think.

You continue:


Does that help?

Actually, quite a bit. Thanks, I have some things to consider and I'll get back to you (as I mentioned earlier). I truly appreciate you 'discussing' this subject with me and not immediately treating me as a ninny or yahoo or both (as many others do even today here at CF).

I appreciate your patience as well. Thank you brother .. :)

Yours in Christ,
David
 
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Papias

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StW wrote:

I'll consider it again and get back to you with additional thoughts and/or questions if that's ok with you?

Yep, OK. Enjoy.



Now, as for speaking of a literal rendering of Genesis 1-3 being the easy explanation for the Fall, you replied:

Originally Posted by Papias View Post
But is it? I mean, the story is obviously symbolic all through it (Jesus never literally crushes Satan's skull, Satan never literally bites Jesus' foot, even the names "Adam" and "Eve" are symbols for "earth" and "mother", and so on).

The fact that there may be symbolism doesn't necessarily preclude its literalness, does it ..

Yes, it does. If you are using symbolism, then that's not a literal reading. A literal reading is just that - literal.



After all, we have NT examples where Jesus calls Himself a "gate",


Right. That's why it's silly to insist on a strictly literal reading of Jesus' words.


and in another place, a "door", but I assume you believe Jesus was an actual man and not simply a mythological being used to make a point, yes?

Sure - just because he used symbolic language doesn't mean he didn't exist. All of us use symbolic language every time we say we are going to hit the road or such.

The big question for me is how far do we go in believing the Bible symbolic, IOW, where and how do we properly draw that line?


Yes it is. I think we agree that parts of our Bibles are symbolic, and parts are not.



Originally Posted by Papias
So the story appears to be intended to be symbolic, leaving literalists with no reasonable explanation for original sin. If it were an unfortunate result of magical fruit, then would not a loving God have said "oh, the magic of the fruit - I can fix that." and made things as they were before? Or is the magical fruit really more powerful than God? No - it was about rebelling, not about magic, right?

Some may think that fruit with magic more powerful than God makes more sense than original sin being the act of rebelling - but not me.



Again, I am a literalist of the OT in the same way I am of the NT

Which sounds like you are a literalist to neither. You agree that Genesis has symbolism, and that the NT has symbolism.



So another problem I have is where and how do we begin to divorce ourselves from the mindset that the Bible is simply a "myth" and begin to hold that the Bible is a true and historically accurate document (with a spiritual twist, of course, for those who are in Christ).

It sounds like you are confusing the idea of the use of symbolism with the idea of something being a "myth" and hence of less value. I don't think symbolic language is of lesser value, but it sounds like you do. Do you think symbolic language is of lesser value?


BTW, I totally agree about the "magic fruit" thing. Whatever it was, the problem wasn't eating the fruit, the problem was disobedience. But even though I don't feel it's necessary to believe that the "magic fruit" was really a Granny Smith doesn't mean that I need to treat all of Genesis 1-11 as a myth, does it?

I never said or implied that acknowledging some symbolism means saying an entire work is symbolism (that wouldn't even make sense - even symbolic stories have words that aren't symbolic). Call me wrong, but it sounds like you've been told that seeing some symbolism anywhere somehow renders the whole book a "myth" of lesser value.

Thanks, I have some things to consider and I'll get back to you (as I mentioned earlier). I truly appreciate you 'discussing' this subject with me and not immediately treating me as a ninny or yahoo or both (as many others do even today here at CF).

I appreciate your patience as well. Thank you brother ..

all good, take your time. have a nice day, brother-

Papias
 
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SkyWriting

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The short answer to your question is Yes.
Finer nuances are that in theistic evolution, God is explicitly the cause, creator and basis of this ongoing evolution. Nothing in theistic evolution contradicts the evidence.
Further reading can be found in many places - one good source is BioLogos: Science and faith in harmony
In Christ-
Papias

Did Jesus heal people....or did they just evolve real fast! but
with no conflicting evidence.
 
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