Natural Evil

Achilles6129 said:

What are everyone's ideas on natural evil (tsunamis, earthquakes, plagues, etc.)? Why does God allow these things to occur to the people they do? Or, if you're an antitheist, has natural evil convinced you that God doesn't exist, and do you believe there's any explanation at all for why God might allow it?

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Never heard them called "natural evil"...I've always known those things are natural disasters...or just nature. Evil seems to imply intent, or at least a conscious action.

No, the existence of natural disasters hasn't convinced me that god doesn't exist. Natural disasters really have nothing to do with my disbelief in god.

Achilles6129 said:

What are everyone's ideas on natural evil (tsunamis, earthquakes, plagues, etc.)? Why does God allow these things to occur to the people they do? Or, if you're an antitheist, has natural evil convinced you that God doesn't exist, and do you believe there's any explanation at all for why God might allow it?

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The universe is filled with obstacles to life.

No God is required to explain this.

Achilles6129 said:

What are everyone's ideas on natural evil (tsunamis, earthquakes, plagues, etc.)? Why does God allow these things to occur to the people they do? Or, if you're an antitheist, has natural evil convinced you that God doesn't exist, and do you believe there's any explanation at all for why God might allow it?

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natural disasters have nothing to do with my disbelief. i do find it odd to call them evil though.

You are not here in this organic life. This is an image of the inorganic state of Spirit (Consciousness). Take a picture in your hand of yourself, on your phone or hanging on the wall. Look in a mirror. Which one is you? You are the one looking through the eyes at an image. Genesis 1:27 and Hebrews 9, among other places, tells you that the image is created and you are inside the image. The Son of God is Word programmed by letters (Aleph Bet). It's a hologram of sorts. John 1 fills you in on this. My threads outline this in detail. Take a look at link 2 and 6 below. You are not here, but entangled into the robe you wear. A new robe is promised, along with a new Heaven and Earth with no shadows (aftereffects of dimensions above).

POE

P. But to what good end is pain thus rendered possible?


V. All things are either good or bad by comparison. A sufficient analysis will show that pleasure in all cases, is but the contrast of pain. Positive pleasure is a mere idea. To be happy at any one point we must have suffered at the same. Never to suffer would have been never to have been blessed. But it has been shown that, in the inorganic life, pain cannot be; thus the necessity for the organic. The pain of the primitive life of Earth, is the sole basis of the bliss of the ultimate life in Heaven.

Eve was taken from Adam. Eve is the feminine (weak nature) being refined.

Matthew 18

10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

You are the child of God below. Your Angel faces the Father. To get the entanglement part of this, read all of Matthew 18. Who is the greatest in the Kingdom? The child below. Suffering is the point of the organic. Without it, you cannot value your position in the inorganic.

Matthew 22 then tells you how the marriage of your lower nature is joined with your upper nature after refinement. Like the Angels is BOTH male and female again--in the image of God. Two become one new creation above from refinement below.

Bride and Groom joined.

AlephBet said:

V. All things are either good or bad by comparison. A sufficient analysis will show that pleasure in all cases, is but the contrast of pain. Positive pleasure is a mere idea. To be happy at any one point we must have suffered at the same. Never to suffer would have been never to have been blessed. But it has been shown that, in the inorganic life, pain cannot be; thus the necessity for the organic. The pain of the primitive life of Earth, is the sole basis of the bliss of the ultimate life in Heaven.

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Happiness is a contextual feeling true, but this doesn't mean that things that get in the way of my happiness are evil, it just means that the universe isn't programmed to provide me with happiness.

This isn't an issue unless your philosophy requires that the universe care about your feelings.

Achilles6129 said:

What are everyone's ideas on natural evil (tsunamis, earthquakes, plagues, etc.)? Why does God allow these things to occur to the people they do? Or, if you're an antitheist, has natural evil convinced you that God doesn't exist, and do you believe there's any explanation at all for why God might allow it?

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I don't even recognize such a thing as natural evil. "Evil" as I inform the concept, has to involve a choice to do something that one knows to be wrong. A hurricane does not choose to make landfall on my back door and a boulder does not wait on the mountainside and then choose to roll over my car. It is simply causality. It is acting according to its nature. A hurricane goes where it goes according to the laws of nature. I don't expect to be protected from the law of causality any more than from the fact that if I choose not to eat or drink I will die. If one does not believe in a supernatural being who controls nature then the problem of evil simply dissolves away.

Achilles6129 said:

What are everyone's ideas on natural evil (tsunamis, earthquakes, plagues, etc.)? Why does God allow these things to occur to the people they do? Or, if you're an antitheist, has natural evil convinced you that God doesn't exist, and do you believe there's any explanation at all for why God might allow it?

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I think the entire idea of "natural evils" is not sensible.

Good and evil has everything to do with intention. Nature just "is". Nature just happens. No intentions, no goals to harm or help.

Earth quakes are an inevitable consequence of a planet with plate tectonics and a molten core. So are volcano's.

God... god is a non-issue for me. My atheism has everything to do with the absurd claims of theism and the total lack of any supportive evidence for those claims.

Achilles6129 said:

What are everyone's ideas on natural evil (tsunamis, earthquakes, plagues, etc.)? Why does God allow these things to occur to the people they do? Or, if you're an antitheist, has natural evil convinced you that God doesn't exist, and do you believe there's any explanation at all for why God might allow it?

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It is necessary that they occur; the universe could be no other way. This is what a real universe looks like. This is what real is. God 'allows' them because God is a god of realness not fakeness. It could be no other way.

Evil is calamity, and calamity is always relative to the person (for the grass, deer are a calamity....for the deer, a lion is a calamity...and so on).

Achilles6129 said:

What are everyone's ideas on natural evil (tsunamis, earthquakes, plagues, etc.)?

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I don´t know why you call them "evil".

Why does God allow these things to occur to the people they do?

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I don´t believe that there´s a God.

Or, if you're an antitheist,

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I´m not.

has natural evil convinced you that God doesn't exist,

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No, that wouldn´t follow, would it?
At best, they would make for an argument against particular god concepts.

and do you believe there's any explanation at all for why God might allow it?

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As I said already, I don´t believe that there´s a God.
I have, though, come across quite a few different explanations from Christians and other theists, but I must say I didn´t find them terribly convincing.

Achilles6129 said:

has natural evil convinced you that God doesn't exist

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If one or more gods exist, it's clear they don't intervene miraculously to avert these disasters.

Historically, the Great Earthquake of Lisbon caused some soul-searching on this very issue, and fostered Enlightenment thinking.

The earthquake had wide-ranging effects on the lives of the populace and intelligentsia. The earthquake had struck on an important church holiday and had destroyed almost every important church in the city, causing anxiety and confusion amongst the citizens of a staunch and devout Roman Catholic city and country, which had been a major patron of the Church. Theologians focused and speculated on the religious cause and message, seeing the earthquake as a manifestation of divine judgment.[17] Most philosophers rejected that on the grounds that the Alfama, Lisbon's red-light district, suffered only minor damage.

variant said:

The universe is filled with obstacles to life.

No God is required to explain this.

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If has no God, then natural disasters are normal, easy to understand.
If has God, then all become difficult.
So, no God.

Is that what you said?

Achilles6129 said:

What are everyone's ideas on natural evil (tsunamis, earthquakes, plagues, etc.)? Why does God allow these things to occur to the people they do? Or, if you're an antitheist, has natural evil convinced you that God doesn't exist, and do you believe there's any explanation at all for why God might allow it?

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Well, if a God exits, it would mean this God is ok with these natural disasters, that's all.

Are natural disasters the reason I don't believe in a God? No.

juvenissun said:

If has no God, then natural disasters are normal, easy to understand.
If has God, then all become difficult.
So, no God.

Is that what you said?

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No. The only problem is if you are proposing a God that doesn't want there to be natural disasters and is powerful enough to prevent them.

That is obviously untrue.

I find a universe lacking God to be the simpler explanation for all events, and don't see the requirement to posit one, which is why I am an atheist.

Achilles6129 said:

Or, if you're an antitheist, has natural evil convinced you that God doesn't exist, and do you believe there's any explanation at all for why God might allow it?

Click to expand...

Natural "evil" isn't like the single most important thing that convinced me that there's no God, but it is one of the pieces of evidence that leads me to that conclusion.

I can think of a number of reasons for why a god might allow natural disasters, but that's part of the problem; none of them have any good evidence pointing towards them being the reason. They're all ad hoc, so they make the whole God thing even less likely.

I wouldn't say that natural evil was the main reason for my lack of belief, but I suppose it's part of the puzzle. It makes complete sense if there's no God, and makes little sense if there is a God.

Achilles6129 said:

Or, if you're an antitheist, has natural evil convinced you that God doesn't exist, and do you believe there's any explanation at all for why God might allow it?

Click to expand...

Inkfingers said:

It is necessary that they occur; the universe could be no other way. This is what a real universe looks like. This is what real is. God 'allows' them because God is a god of realness not fakeness. It could be no other way.

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If God healed people, or saved people, wouldn't that be real too? If there is a loving God, wouldn't a real universe look like a loving God helping people, rather than hiding?

variant said:

No. The only problem is if you are proposing a God that doesn't want there to be natural disasters and is powerful enough to prevent them.

That is obviously untrue.

I find a universe lacking God to be the simpler explanation for all events, and don't see the requirement to posit one, which is why I am an atheist.

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Nobody would care about natural disasters on Jupiter, or even on the moon.

Would you be troubled by a god Who allows natural disaster to kill life?
With a god, natural disaster is troubling.
So, to avoid that trouble, let's have no god.

bhsmte said:

Well, if a God exits, it would mean this God is ok with these natural disasters, that's all.

Are natural disasters the reason I don't believe in a God? No.

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How do you compromise between a god and natural disasters (that kill)? You simply can not.

A god who allows massive death with no purpose? Why do we want that god?

Achilles6129 said:

What are everyone's ideas on natural evil (tsunamis, earthquakes, plagues, etc.)? Why does God allow these things to occur to the people they do? Or, if you're an antitheist, has natural evil convinced you that God doesn't exist, and do you believe there's any explanation at all for why God might allow it?

Click to expand...

Evil is something we ascribe to human actions not natures. For a group of people to build a city on top of some tectonic plates that have been shifting once every couple of centuries for the past million years; then when these plates continue to do what they have always been, and the earth quake destroys the city and kills a few people; it would be arrogant to call the plate shifting "evil" it would be more accurate to call the people "stupid" for building a city in the path of these tectonic plates.

Ken

juvenissun said:

Nobody would care about natural disasters on Jupiter, or even on the moon.

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They would if they lived there, it's contextual.

Would you be troubled by a god Who allows natural disaster to kill life?
With a god, natural disaster is troubling.

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Why should a God that troubles me be any more or less likely than one that doesn't?

So, to avoid that trouble, let's have no god.

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I agree with the sentiment, just not the logic.

A universe with a God looks exactly like one without, since the idea of God is flexible enough to cover all observations.

It is a vacuous concept until we start to assert the nature of God uncompromisingly in a way that COULD be contradicted by our observations, or allow our observations to define what we would think God to be like.