Myths about the concept of "free college"

[ThatRobGuy]

Many people claim they want to emulate the Nordic model for college education because they heard the term "tuition-free", but do they really?

I was having a conversation with my cousin today (whose views differ from my own on this topic, naturally) who was suggesting that it's unfair that she's saddled with large student loan debt (she got a masters in fine arts), and how "the government should cover it, just like they do in Denmark and Finland"...

That conversation made me realize that many folks (apparently even AOC, who was critical of Mayor Pete's objection to "universal college for all") are woefully underinformed with regards to how the post-secondary education systems work in those countries.

People hear "tuition-free college" and apparently assume that any person can go to college for free for any major they want, and never have to pay a dime.

That's not the case...

The Nordic countries have a very strict meritocracy in place with regards to who gets into college at all.

As some quick facts:

Finland offers a nice deal for students only if they are lucky and talented enough to get in. In 2016, Finnish institutions of higher education accepted just 33 percent of applicants. That’s the degree of selectivity we’d expect from an elite college in America, yet that is the admissions rate for Finland’s entire university system.

And when it comes to majoring in certain very selective fields like communications/journalism/fine arts (like a large percentage of American students major in), there's a very rigorous quota in place for how many students can actually major in those things.

Finland has only one fine arts school (for those very select few who are fortunate enough to get accepted), and at any given time, there are fewer than 2,000 students (across all four years of the undergrad program) studying for the equivalent of a bachelors, and only ~200 studying it in a post-grad capacity.

So, it should be noted that ideas like "universal college for everybody, no matter what they want to major in" isn't actually a thing that's practiced in any country that's implemented a tuition-free college program for their youths.

 

[prodromos]

Perhaps students in the USA should enter the military straight out of High School so they can earn enough money to cover their higher education fees after they complete their service. Some could even complete higher studies while in the military, having their course work paid for by the government. It is ridiculous that people with no income are being encouraged to put themselves in so much debt from the outset.

 

[Tanj]

Many people claim they want to emulate the Nordic model for college education because they heard the term "tuition-free", but do they really?

I was having a conversation with my cousin today (whose views differ from my own on this topic, naturally) who was suggesting that it's unfair that she's saddled with large student loan debt (she got a masters in fine arts), and how "the government should cover it, just like they do in Denmark and Finland"...

That conversation made me realize that many folks (apparently even AOC, who was critical of Mayor Pete's objection to "universal college for all") are woefully underinformed with regards to how the post-secondary education systems work in those countries.

People hear "tuition-free college" and apparently assume that any person can go to college for free for any major they want, and never have to pay a dime.

That's not the case...

The Nordic countries have a very strict meritocracy in place with regards to who gets into college at all.

As some quick facts:

Finland offers a nice deal for students only if they are lucky and talented enough to get in. In 2016, Finnish institutions of higher education accepted just 33 percent of applicants. That’s the degree of selectivity we’d expect from an elite college in America, yet that is the admissions rate for Finland’s entire university system.

And when it comes to majoring in certain very selective fields like communications/journalism/fine arts (like a large percentage of American students major in), there's a very rigorous quota in place for how many students can actually major in those things.

Finland has only one fine arts school (for those very select few who are fortunate enough to get accepted), and at any given time, there are fewer than 2,000 students (across all four years of the undergrad program) studying for the equivalent of a bachelors, and only ~200 studying it in a post-grad capacity.

So, it should be noted that ideas like "universal college for everybody, no matter what they want to major in" isn't actually a thing that's practiced in any country that's implemented a tuition-free college program for their youths.

Your facts need citations.
Here's 9 university offering visual arts bachelors (which I assume comes under fine arts).
Best 9 Visual Arts Bachelor's Degrees in Finland 2021 - Bachelorsportal.com

The fact there's a highly ranked "The Academy for Fine Arts" doesn't mean it's the only place you can go to study it. The fact there's only one of these in a country of 5 million I do not find odd.

Your absolute numbers absent relative numbers in comparison the the USA makes most of this unevidenced screed...unimpressive.

PS: I don't think college should be free either
PPS: If I was going to look for a Nordic model, not sure just Finland is a good plan.

 

[Speedwell]

Many people claim they want to emulate the Nordic model for college education because they heard the term "tuition-free", but do they really?

I was having a conversation with my cousin today (whose views differ from my own on this topic, naturally) who was suggesting that it's unfair that she's saddled with large student loan debt (she got a masters in fine arts), and how "the government should cover it, just like they do in Denmark and Finland"...

That conversation made me realize that many folks (apparently even AOC, who was critical of Mayor Pete's objection to "universal college for all") are woefully underinformed with regards to how the post-secondary education systems work in those countries.

People hear "tuition-free college" and apparently assume that any person can go to college for free for any major they want, and never have to pay a dime.

That's not the case...



The Nordic countries have a very strict meritocracy in place with regards to who gets into college at all.

As some quick facts:

Finland offers a nice deal for students only if they are lucky and talented enough to get in. In 2016, Finnish institutions of higher education accepted just 33 percent of applicants. That’s the degree of selectivity we’d expect from an elite college in America, yet that is the admissions rate for Finland’s entire university system.

And when it comes to majoring in certain very selective fields like communications/journalism/fine arts (like a large percentage of American students major in), there's a very rigorous quota in place for how many students can actually major in those things.

Finland has only one fine arts school (for those very select few who are fortunate enough to get accepted), and at any given time, there are fewer than 2,000 students (across all four years of the undergrad program) studying for the equivalent of a bachelors, and only ~200 studying it in a post-grad capacity.

So, it should be noted that ideas like "universal college for everybody, no matter what they want to major in" isn't actually a thing that's practiced in any country that's implemented a tuition-free college program for their youths.

Sounds like they're doing it right. The other thing that ought to be mentioned is that Finland has an extensive and accessible vocational training system--a good option for kids who are only going to university because they want a decent job, not out of a calling to one of the professions..

 

[Gene2memE]

As some quick facts:

Finland offers a nice deal for students only if they are lucky and talented enough to get in. In 2016, Finnish institutions of higher education accepted just 33 percent of applicants. That’s the degree of selectivity we’d expect from an elite college in America, yet that is the admissions rate for Finland’s entire university system.

This doesn't seem to gel with the OECD's reporting about Finland's tertiary system.

In 2019, 39% of Finland's population had completed tertiary education (compared to the OECD average of 39%) and 42% of 25-34 year-olds had a tertiary degree in Finland (compared to 45% on average across OECD countries.)

Given that Finnish graduation rates for tertiary education for 1995 to 2011 was 47%, I find it highly doubtful that Finland had a tertiary entrance rate of 33% in 2016 (as this would mean that tertiary completion rates would only be about 17.5%).

Finland's system isn't perfect. It clearly has a problem of a demand/supply inequality with some university courses. Quoting the OECD's 2020 assessment:

...Finland has experienced students queuing for university entry as a result of a mismatch between the supply of student places and students' demand for certain fields of study. As in other OECD countries, the expansion of tertiary education implies providing a sufficiently broad offer of studies to address the needs of the labour market as well as the interests of the student population.

Bear in mind that Finland also has an unusually strong vocational education system. Which explains why its university entry rates aren't particularly high. 50% of secondary students are enrolled in vocational programmes, as of 2019. And 38% of the population had completed vocational upper secondary or post-secondary non-tertiary education.

All data from:

https://gpseducation.oecd.org/Content/EAGCountryNotes/EAG2020_CN_FIN.pdf

http://www.oecd.org/education/EDUCATION POLICY OUTLOOK FINLAND_EN.pdf

Also, the US has an overall tertiary degree attainment of 44%, just 2% higher than Finland. But Finland has a higher rate of attainment of 4 year degrees (41%, compared to 36% in the US).

Data from here: List of countries by tertiary education attainment - Wikipedia

 

[7thKeeper]

Sounds like they're doing it right. The other thing that ought to be mentioned is that Finland has an extensive and accessible vocational training system--a good option for kids who are only going to university because they want a decent job, not out of a calling to one of the professions..

As a side note to this, I personally did a double-whammy of completing vocational school at the same time as I got my what I guess would be the equivalent of a HS degree. Gave me quite a good amount of options for where to go afterwards, especially after completing a broader degree of math studies. Decided to apply to both vocational and university after and ended up choosing to go to the university.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Your facts need citations.
Here's 9 university offering visual arts bachelors (which I assume comes under fine arts).
Best 9 Visual Arts Bachelor's Degrees in Finland 2021 - Bachelorsportal.com

The fact there's a highly ranked "The Academy for Fine Arts" doesn't mean it's the only place you can go to study it. The fact there's only one of these in a country of 5 million I do not find odd.

Your absolute numbers absent relative numbers in comparison the the USA makes most of this unevidenced screed...unimpressive.

PS: I don't think college should be free either
PPS: If I was going to look for a Nordic model, not sure just Finland is a good plan.

University of the Arts Helsinki - Wikipedia

The University of the Arts Helsinki (Finnish: Taideyliopisto, Swedish: Konstuniversitetet), also known as Uniarts Helsinki, is a Finnish arts university that was launched in the beginning of 2013. Apart from a few exceptions, it is the only university in Finland that provides education in the fields it represents.

The University of the Arts Helsinki is mainly in Helsinki, but it also has operations in Kuopio (department of church music) and Seinäjoki at the University Consortium of Seinäjoki (department of popular and folk music).

The university comprises three academies that were formerly independent universities: The Academy of Fine Arts of the University of the Arts Helsinki (until 2013 Finnish Academy of Fine Arts), the Sibelius Academy of the University of the Arts Helsinki (until 2013 Sibelius Academy) and the Theatre Academy of the University of the Arts Helsinki (until 2013 Helsinki Theatre Academy). The total number of students is 1946 (as of 2019).

1,946 students total (across all the years of the bachelors program), and only 205 studying it in a post-grad capacity.


That's one of the things the article I was referencing covers. It's basically impossible to "do all things well simultaneously" It's basically a trade-off when it comes to attainment levels.

List of countries by tertiary education attainment - Wikipedia

If the government wants to make it tuition-free at all costs for the students who get to go, they need to be pragmatic about it if they're viewing it as an investment in the future generation.

Meaning, they likely also won't see trends like this:
Bachelor's degrees conferred by postsecondary institutions, by field of study: Selected years, 1970-71 through 2017-18

If you notice, in the US, rates of conferred degree for things like visual arts and journalism nearly doubled from 1990 to 2005.

If the government picks up the tab, any competent government (which the Nordic governments are...they're quite data driven in their approach) understands that it wouldn't make sense to pay for tens of thousands of degrees in both the fields of journalism or visual arts if there aren't going to be tens of thousands of jobs available in each of those fields.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

This doesn't seem to gel with the OECD's reporting about Finland's tertiary system.

In 2019, 39% of Finland's population had completed tertiary education (compared to the OECD average of 39%) and 42% of 25-34 year-olds had a tertiary degree in Finland (compared to 45% on average across OECD countries.)

Given that Finnish graduation rates for tertiary education for 1995 to 2011 was 47%, I find it highly doubtful that Finland had a tertiary entrance rate of 33% in 2016 (as this would mean that tertiary completion rates would only be about 17.5%).

Finland's system isn't perfect. It clearly has a problem of a demand/supply inequality with some university courses. Quoting the OECD's 2020 assessment:

...Finland has experienced students queuing for university entry as a result of a mismatch between the supply of student places and students' demand for certain fields of study. As in other OECD countries, the expansion of tertiary education implies providing a sufficiently broad offer of studies to address the needs of the labour market as well as the interests of the student population.

Bear in mind that Finland also has an unusually strong vocational education system. Which explains why its university entry rates aren't particularly high. 50% of secondary students are enrolled in vocational programmes, as of 2019. And 38% of the population had completed vocational upper secondary or post-secondary non-tertiary education.

All data from:

https://gpseducation.oecd.org/Content/EAGCountryNotes/EAG2020_CN_FIN.pdf

http://www.oecd.org/education/EDUCATION POLICY OUTLOOK FINLAND_EN.pdf

Also, the US has an overall tertiary degree attainment of 44%, just 2% higher than Finland. But Finland has a higher rate of attainment of 4 year degrees (41%, compared to 36% in the US).

Data from here: List of countries by tertiary education attainment - Wikipedia

https://www.oecd.org/education/education-at-a-glance/EAG2019_CN_FIN.pdf

As many as 67% of applicants to first-degree tertiary education are rejected in Finland – the highest proportion among countries with available data, closely followed by Sweden (63%). As in Sweden, the field of study with the highest share of students rejected is social sciences, journalism and information

If two thirds of applicants are getting rejected, that's likely where they derived the 33% number from, so it's possible that they weren't taking into account the aspect of "get rejected from your preferred school, but then get accepted by your safety school"

Per the link I posted previously (pertaining to the University of Arts being the only fine arts school - with few exceptions in terms of institutions offering those programs), you can see they tightly restrict who's allowed to pursue some of the more specialized majors - specialized meaning "very few available jobs in that field"

 

[MIDutch]

People hear "tuition-free college" and apparently assume that any person can go to college for free for any major they want, and never have to pay a dime.

That's not the case...

The Nordic countries have a very strict meritocracy in place with regards to who gets into college at all.

This is correct. But college (in the US American usage of the word) isn't the only avenue to getting a degree or certificate that leads to gainful employment and a reasonably comfortable life.

Not everyone who lives in Western European countries come away with degrees in medicine or science when they complete their secondary education. Some come away with degrees as teachers or engineers. Others come away with degrees or certificates as an electrician or a graphic artist or an accountant. Surprisingly, students in these countries understand that.

But everyone who wants to get a secondary education does so without the crushing student debt that is so common here in the US.

In fact, it is possible for American students to study in say Germany or France and ALSO come away with no student debt, if they are willing to live in that country for, I believe, 5 years after they receive their degree.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

This is correct. But college (in the US American usage of the word) isn't the only avenue to getting a degree or certificate that leads to gainful employment and a reasonably comfortable life.

Not everyone who lives in Western European countries come away with degrees in medicine or science when they complete their secondary education. Some come away with degrees as teachers or engineers. Others come away with degrees or certificates as an electrician or a graphic artist or an accountant. Surprisingly, students in these countries understand that.

But everyone who wants to get a secondary education does so without the crushing student debt that is so common here in the US.

In fact, it is possible for American students to study in say Germany or France and ALSO come away with no student debt, if they are willing to live in that country for, I believe, 5 years after they receive their degree.

Right, but there are also some very realistic expectations getting set with regards to those countries as well. (that start at a much earlier age)

As a few others noted, there's a larger opportunity for things like vocational training in those countries due to the fact that there's not an overarching mentality that "you need a four year degree to be a viable candidate for a job"

They're more pragmatic and grounded in that regard than we are.

As noted before in the link I posted, here in the US, we have 90k kids per year who get a degree in journalism, and another 80k that get a degree in visual and performing arts.

There's simply not a market for those things to support that many new people looking to join those fields.

For work in the field of journalism, The Bureau of Labor Statistics is only forecasting 46,000 new jobs added to that sector the period of the next 10 years.

If it stays on that pace, each year we'll have nearly 100k people competing for 4,600 open positions. Most will have to admit defeat and end up working in a completely unrelated field

For the Arts, that outlook is even more bleak...80,000 people a year get degrees in the Visual/Performing Arts or related fields.

Non-performing arts are foretasted to lose 32,000 positions over the next 10 years. (losing 3200 jobs per year)
Performing arts is expected to gain 22,000 over the next 10 years. (gaining 2200 positions per year)


If we want the sort of college programs (with regards to how it's funded), some mindsets will need to change and many folks would have to be much more realistic about their career aspirations.

If 90k students per year all say "Journalism is my passion!", and there are only 4,600 open positions in that field per year...it doesn't make sense to pay for them all to get a Bachelors or Masters degree in that field...and we'll need to start being much more selective about who gets to pursue that major.

I don't think it's a coincidence that those two fields (in particular) have a high level of overlap with the political mindset of "all college should be free, and all student loan debt should be forgiven and wiped clean"

A kid signs up for $70k worth of student loan debt to pursue their passion of becoming a filmmaker thinking they'll be the next Tarantino, or thinking they're going to be the next big name writing for the New York Times, when reality sets in, and those first student loan payments come due, it's not surprising that so many in those circles opt for the "all college should be free/it's not fair/we need to erase all student loan debt" mindset.