Mystery or Contradiction?

[WightKraken]

An question that seems to be somewhat inevitable when studying Calvinist theology is, "If God sovereign and causes all things, including bad things, to pass, how is man still held accountable for his sin?" Or, another question that gets at the same idea, "How can God demand that people follow His moral will if He is the one making this impossible through His sovereign will."

I have been trying to see how this has been explained, but I keep running into this idea that we don't need to understand this because it is a divine mystery. Unfortunately, this response seems somewhat insufficient, especially since I don't know that Calvinists would accept a similar answer for how God could be totally sovereign and man could be morally free.

If anyone could offer an more helpful explanation or point me to some resources that do, it would be much appreciated!

 

[Clare73]

An question that seems to be somewhat inevitable when studying Calvinist theology is, "If God sovereign and causes all things, including bad things, to pass, how is man still held accountable for his sin?" Or, another question that gets at the same idea, "How can God demand that people follow His moral will if He is the one making this impossible through His sovereign will."
I have been trying to see how this has been explained, but I keep running into this idea that we don't need to understand this because it is a divine mystery. Unfortunately, this response seems somewhat insufficient, especially since I don't know that Calvinists would accept a similar answer for how God could be totally sovereign and man could be morally free.
If anyone could offer an more helpful explanation or point me to some resources that do, it would be much appreciated!

Well the Biblical answer to your question is not going to resolve your objection to it.

God has bound all men over to disobedience so that all receive mercy only from him (Ro 11:32),
to which Paul responds with a doxology to the glory of such wisdom and judgment( Ro 11:33-36).

 

[WightKraken]

God is sovereign but is not the author of sin. People sin because they desire to sin.

A short writing for you about Compatiblism:

"Compatibilism (also known as soft determinism), is the belief that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. In light of Scripture, human choices are believed to be exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism (see Acts 2:23 & 4:27-28). It should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism - be clear that neither soft nor hard determinism believes man has a free will. Our choices are only our choices because they are voluntary, not coerced. We do not make choices contrary to our desires or natures.

Compatibilism is directly contrary to libertarian free will. Therefore voluntary choice is not the freedom to choose otherwise, that is, without any influence, prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. Voluntary does mean, however, the ability to choose what we want or desire most. The former view is known as contrary choice, the latter free agency. (Note: compatibilism denies that the will is free to choose otherwise, that is, free from the bondage of the corruption nature,for the unregenerate, and denies that the will is free from God's eternal decreee.)

Christ dwells within us not for the purpose of sinking our being into His being, nor of substituting Himself for us as the agent in our activities; much less of seizing our wills and operating them for us in contradiction to our own immanent mind; but to operate directly upon us, to make us good, that our works, freely done by us, may under His continual leading, be good also."
B.B. Warfield"

Compatibilism | Monergism

Compatibilism (also known as soft determinism), is the belief that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. In

www.monergism.com

So, just to be clear, in this viewpoint, God is not the one who causes people to desire to sin?

 

[Hazelelponi]

So, just to be clear, in this viewpoint, God is not the one who causes people to desire to sin?

That is correct.

Sin ultimately arises from the sin nature inherited as a result of the fall, and the desire for sin is in a man's own heart and mind.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Are you intending to ask a Calvin-follower this question,

or to read the Bible and see the clear answer if God Permits?

People who are Calvinistic don't "follow" John Calvin, they are simply associated with some of the theology taught by him some 450-500 years ago or so.

Do you know they call me a Calvinist and I have never read any work by Calvin and I truly have no idea what he taught?

Lol.... It's just a name associated with some particular understanding of Scripture that comes about by reading Scripture for yourself for the first time...

It's the theology that came about because of just that, people reading the Scriptures for the first time after they were able to start printing Bibles people could read.

Since this is the theology that came about from my own reading of Scripture, I'm content believing it's from God and His Spirit, and this is where we should be.

Morning!

 

[Hazelelponi]

some follow him and say so. too bad.

Some call themselves Calvinist because others do... John Calvin isn't alive to follow, only Christ is.

 

[WightKraken]

That is correct.

Sin ultimately arises from the sin nature inherited as a result of the fall, and the desire for sin is in a man's own heart and mind.

Thank you!

Although, I guess I am still a little confused on how this would be different than free will.

 

[David Lamb]

Thank you!

Although, I guess I am still a little confused on how this would be different than free will.

Well, Luther wrote a book entitled, "The Bondage of the Will". We read in the bible of unsaved sinners being in bondage to sin:

“But God be thanked that [though] you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.” (Ro 6:17-18 NKJV)

 

[WightKraken]

(staff edit)

I guess what I am looking for is an explanation for how a God who creates some people specifically to do/be evil could not be evil or at the very least amoral Himself beyond just, "It's a mystery." I don't believe God is evil or amoral, and I am guessing you don't either. But God saying He hates evil and also being the one who ordains it seems like something that needs to be addressed.

 

[WightKraken]

Well, Luther wrote a book entitled, "The Bondage of the Will". We read in the bible of unsaved sinners being in bondage to sin:

“But God be thanked that [though] you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.” (Ro 6:17-18 NKJV)

Great! I will have to give that a read!

Do you know if this book happens to address the Fall?

 

[Clare73]

I don't want to mischaracterize what people who believe in freewill believe about freewill, but in speaking to them there's pretty serious differences I would say.
I am compatiblist, but for me it's only because it's logically consistent with Scriptures... I do sound determinist, even hard determinist occasionally and will explain some things in the exact same way as they do.
But someone who believes in freewill won't explain anything about Gods interaction with man the same way I would... they've got a God at the complete mercy of mans decision-making and decision-making abilities from appearances.
They don't appear to have an effective God with sovereign power over His creation, and while I don't attribute sin to God, I do give Him the Glory for all good, most especially as related to our salvation.
My God is actually real and powerful - especially in comparison to theirs, just hearing them speak - but I can't explain freewill, I have not believed in it. (God had to come get me and tell me it was time to come home, I'm just thankful He did).
God is not reacting to us, He has determined to create something through us, and create us into something. He is the potter, and we the clay.
We have a framework within which we operate which I don't think freewill people believe in.

Perhaps this will help.

The Bible does not teach the free will of man. The Bible teaches that man is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34, Ro 7:25, 11:32, Gal 3:22), that
it is only those whom the Son makes free that are free (Jn 8:36, cf Jn 8:32, Ro 6:18, 22, 8:12, Gal 5:1).

In short, what man has is free agency, he has freedom to make some choices, but not all; e.g., he cannot choose to be sinless.

 

[Hazelelponi]

a person who abdicates their responsibility for their choices no matter how sinful
often claims it is because they do not have free will
and they blame it on some god,
but Jesus sees right through that fraud and that deception
and judges them guilty, righteously so.

And other people are so in love with their own sin that they create a weak God who let's them do anything they desire without fear of judgement.

We can play this game if you like... Lol

Time to leave Babylon.

 

[Clare73]

Unregenerate man is a slave to sin. I absolutely 100% agree.

But he also loves and chooses sin - his own desires... Love love loves his own sin.

While free to choose what he prefers, his disposition is fallen due to Adam and, therefore, he prefers sin.

God is not responsible for this.
That's all that is said. Unregenerate man will never choose anything else of his own will, because he wills for sin continually.

God did not do this to him.

Correct. . .Adam did this to him.

His choices are his own. He does stand accountable for His own decisions because they are the desires he had.

he will always remain in the framework of slave of sin - because opportunity to choose God will not result in a different outcome.

 

[Hazelelponi]

That does not disagree with what I said.
The person who abdicates their responsibility counts on what you posted.
If the eternal soul is a game to you, no wonder .....

Looked to me you wanted to make some kind of point against Calvinistic theology, even though the theology doesn't teach anyone that sin has no consequence, Spurgeon was a Calvinist do you really think he went light on sin?

When you make things into generalities and tropes it stops being about God, and becomes nothing more than a game for people who are full of ego.

It's unserious and unconcerned for anyone's salvation.

 

[linux.poet]

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