• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
11,387
7,701
25
WI
✟644,678.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Is it just and fair that Myra is likely in heaven, but some of her victims may not be?
I am not British, so I do not know.

I pulled up an article for those who might be interested in reading about this murderer (age rating 16+, due to heavy topic):
 
Upvote 0

Tellyontellyon

Well-Known Member
Jan 19, 2020
837
255
53
Wales
✟137,687.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
She was a murderer and paedophile.... and became a Christian.
 
Reactions: AlexB23
Upvote 0

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
11,387
7,701
25
WI
✟644,678.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
She was a murderer and paedophile.... and became a Christian.
Eww, but at least God brought her back out of that mess. I can not make any assumptions, but we will find out if she was truly saved when we get to heaven.
 
Upvote 0

Tellyontellyon

Well-Known Member
Jan 19, 2020
837
255
53
Wales
✟137,687.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
Eww, but at least God brought her back out of that mess. I can not make any assumptions, but we will find out if she was truly saved when we get to heaven.
What about the second part of my question? Is it fair that some of her child and teenage victims may not be in heaven?

The question applies more broadly? There are Christians who, for example, murdered non-Christians.

Yet the Christian murderer has a chance to repent... the victim has no such chance..

Is it fair?
 
Upvote 0

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
11,387
7,701
25
WI
✟644,678.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I can not answer that one as I am not God, but maybe the victims get a second chance. God is a fair judge, and there may a place between Heaven and Earth where people can repent (purgatory) or something. Who knows, one of the victims may have been seeking Christ, but has not repented yet, but was really close to repenting.
 
Upvote 0

Lukaris

Orthodox Christian
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2007
8,832
3,185
Pennsylvania, USA
✟946,818.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
We cannot say for specific individuals. I believe if we really pray & think hard on the great commandments ( Matthew 22:36-40) & the golden rule ( Matthew 7:12 in relation to Matthew 7:1-12) our sense of hope for God’s mercy increases. Reading verses like 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 is most helpful also. We should also read verses like Mark 10:13-16, the Beatitudes in Matthew 5:1-12 etc. I am thinking mostly in regards to children of course in line with the thread. We can also consider Romans 2:6-16, Matthew 12:30-33 etc.
 
Upvote 0

Lily_o_valley

Accidental Maverick
Jul 11, 2008
120
44
Cornwall
Visit site
✟29,156.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Is it just and fair that Myra is likely in heaven, but some of her victims may not be?
Did she actually repent and make amends in any way? Why would child victims not be (is the atonement really so limited?)
 
Upvote 0

Tellyontellyon

Well-Known Member
Jan 19, 2020
837
255
53
Wales
✟137,687.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
Did she actually repent and make amends in any way? Why would child victims not be (is the atonement really so limited?)
Let's assume she did, or at least consider the hypothetical case.
Also some of the murder/rape victims were 17 yrs old..
Do all murder victims automatically go to heaven.

Or let's consider the German death camps... 6 million jews killed... According to Christianity.. they haven't accepted Jesus as their lord and saviour, therefore hell (that must be the case if Christ's sacrifice meant something)

Yet, some of the Nazis repent and accept Jesus, they had the chance to, and go to heaven.

My question is about the fairness of that...
 
Reactions: Lily_o_valley
Upvote 0

Lukaris

Orthodox Christian
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2007
8,832
3,185
Pennsylvania, USA
✟946,818.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
There is an observation made by an ancient philosopher: Aristides of the early Christians around 125 AD:


And when a child has been born to one of them, they give thanks to God; and if moreover it happen to die in childhood, they give thanks to God the more, as for one who has passed through the world without sins.





Aristides later became a Christian and his observation seems to be that children were mostly innocent and easily saved.
His observation is from chapter 15 of a letter he wrote to Hadrian which gave a positive view of the Christians. It is actually only about 10-12 printed pages long.


 
Upvote 0

Lily_o_valley

Accidental Maverick
Jul 11, 2008
120
44
Cornwall
Visit site
✟29,156.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
I agree, and very much question the mainstream/ evangelical/ Calvinistic? beliefs that rationalise all this by saying that all sin is equal, and that we are all born sinners, so even children actually deserve hell. I think that’s an appalling belief.

Catholics at least have a system of Purgatory where such egregious sins as Myra Hindley's would be in some way atoned for. (I don't personally believe that, but it seems a more righteous and fair system, that recognises that sins are not equal.

There is another (liberal?) belief, Universalism, which I am more drawn to, which suggests that the Atonement Christ achieved saves everyone, believers and followers or not. I'm not sure how egregious wickedness is dealt with in that system. Perhaps someone who beliefs in Universalism could elaborate?
 
Upvote 0

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
3,371
1,848
76
Paignton
✟76,450.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I feel it is better, rather than comparing one human beings sins with another's, we consider God's perfect holiness. When we do that, we perhaps begin to realise the truth stated in Isaiah:

“But we are all like an unclean [thing], And all our righteousnesses [are] like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.” (Isa 64:6 NKJV)

My sins may not be as headline-grabbing as someone's like Myra Hindley's, but both she and I fall so far short of God's perfection.

I am not a universalist, so I can make no comment on your last paragraph.
 
Reactions: Lily_o_valley
Upvote 0

Apple Sky

In Sight Like Unto An Emerald
Site Supporter
Jan 7, 2024
7,459
969
South Wales
✟249,544.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I believe that if a person has repented they are saved & that Children are exempt from sin & automatically go to heaven.

As for the victims of Murderers who have not repented, I'm not sure what will happen to them, only God knows this, but I'm sure God will be merciful on them & judge them accordingly.
 
Upvote 0

Tellyontellyon

Well-Known Member
Jan 19, 2020
837
255
53
Wales
✟137,687.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
Judge them accordingly? There is no opportunity for judgement in Christianity.

God as Judge is an impossibility...
If you repent and believe... you ok.
If you haven't repented and believed you go to hell.
That is Christian logic and doctrine.
 
Upvote 0

Lukaris

Orthodox Christian
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2007
8,832
3,185
Pennsylvania, USA
✟946,818.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Judge them accordingly? There is no opportunity for judgement in Christianity.

God as Judge is an impossibility...
If you repent and believe... you ok.
If you haven't repented and believed you go to hell.
That is Christian logic and doctrine.
Luke 18:16-17
 
Upvote 0

Tellyontellyon

Well-Known Member
Jan 19, 2020
837
255
53
Wales
✟137,687.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
Luke 18:16-17
They weren't little children, they were older children, some up to 17. Even if they were adults... Christian logic is the murdered can go to heaven while the guilty can go to hell... It's wrong.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Critically Copernican
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
24,751
11,564
Space Mountain!
✟1,365,788.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Is it just and fair that Myra is likely in heaven, but some of her victims may not be?

I'm not familiar with the Myra Hindley case, so if you want me to attempt an answer to your question, you need to do the proper work of citing your sources for your "informed" opinion. It's not my job to have to go play pin-the-tail-on the donkey and guess about where you pulled your info.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Critically Copernican
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
24,751
11,564
Space Mountain!
✟1,365,788.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
They weren't little children, they were older children, some up to 17. Even if they were adults... Christian logic is the murdered can go to heaven while the guilty can go to hell... It's wrong.

Also, the Exploring Christianity section is not an apologetics forum.

And the only "wrong" going on here [so far] is the way in which you're gerrymandering your chosen definitional lines of Ethics and Morality.
 
Upvote 0

Tellyontellyon

Well-Known Member
Jan 19, 2020
837
255
53
Wales
✟137,687.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Married
Myra hindley is a famous serial killer... world famous... you want proof of that? What sources do you imagine you need??


This forum is where I, a non Christian, can ask questions about Christianity. So apologetics is not off topic... imo

Who told you you could call the shots anyway? If you think my post is inappropriate, contact the forum.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Critically Copernican
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
24,751
11,564
Space Mountain!
✟1,365,788.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Myra hindley is a famous serial killer... world famous... you want proof of that? What sources do you imagine you need??
You're misunderstanding my intent here. What I expect to see from you is your provision of support for your claims/assertions. You've asserted that Myra Hindley "became a Christian."

I need to see from which sources you've drawn and, thereby, claim to have established this as a clear, unmitigated fact from which to then commence with your additional [and still morally ambiguous] criticism.

Again, it is not my job----------or the job of anyone else here-----------to find the supporting documentation for your allegation. No one has to accept a slap-n-dash form of assertion from an interlocutor. As a philosopher, I definitely don't accept that form of assertion.
No, no, no. The Statement of Purpose for this forum thread section states that it IS NOT for apologetic purposes. So, no, YOU don't get to call your own shots or how your inquiries here get to be presented. Perhaps you missed that part when you were reading the SOP for this forum section????? Here, let's read it again together:

The primary focus of this forum is Christian evangelism and discipleship, not to debate Christian Theology or challenge, attack, or argue against, Christianity.


Who told you you could call the shots anyway? If you think my post is inappropriate, contact the forum.

Do you want to explore and discuss Christianity, honestly and transparently? Or is your preference to troll us here in a slap-n-dash fashion?

'Cuz if you're here to troll, I will definitely be THAT ONE who will take you to task. So, decide what your purpose is here.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0