My Views

[ForeverEndeavor]

My view would be basically considered pre-wrath but there are differences between my views and Marvin Rosenthals. Rather than keep answering questions little by little about what I think, here's the sum-up from my website (this is a collaberative effort between myself and my father, who wrote this):

HOGGATT’S CHRONOLOGY

Is the book of Revelation chronological or not? Why does it say that Jesus takes possession of the kingdom in 11:15, yet people are warned about taking the mark of the beast in 14:9?

The main story in Revelation is divided into four groups of events. First we find seven seals, then seven trumpets, then angels with proclamations (largely ignored), then seven bowls. At the beginning of the seals story there is a scroll (Rev. 5:1). I believe the scroll is the key to unlocking the book of Revelation. The scroll is sealed with seven seals. Seals were a way of insuring the security of the message inside the scroll. Sealing wax was melted onto the edge of the paper, and stamped with the king’s stamp. If the seal was unbroken, the message was secure.

As the seals are broken, the story unfolds. The seventh seal contains the seven trumpets.

Near the end of the seven trumpets, we find another scroll (Rev. 10:2). I believe it is the same scroll as the first, but it is now little, because John is told to eat the scroll, and he can’t eat a big scroll. He eats the scroll, and the story becomes a part of him. He is then told: “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings” (Rev. 10:11). He is not told: “You must continue to prophesy.” The story starts over. It is the same story, told from a different perspective. The seals story is the same as the angels story, and the trumpets story is the same as the bowls story.



SEALS……………….TRUMPETS……………..ANGELS……………..BOWLS





SEALS……………….TRUMPETS (start over)





ANGELS……………..BOWLS





So why is the story told twice? Because “Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses” (2 Cor. 13:1). See also Deut. 19:15. The first witness is the messenger (angel), and the second witness is John. Matters of great importance are given twice in the Bible. Gen. 41:32, in the story of Joseph and Pharaoh’s dream, says: “The reason the dream was given to Pharaoh in two forms is that the matter has been firmly decided by God, and God will do it soon.”

Marvin Byers, in his book The Final Victory, the Year 2000, has pointed out that there are 42 similarities between the seals/trumpets story and the angels/bowls story, making them essentially identical. He fails to note, however, the coming of Christ at the sixth seal (Rev. 6:16), and the harvest of the earth (rapture) at the sixth angel.

Matthew 24, in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus tells the same story as the seals and angels. He lists the same events, and even puts them in the same order.

Now let’s line up all three stories and see what happens. Refer to the chart at the top of the page, starting on the left. It is generally agreed that the first seal describes the antichrist riding forth to conquer. He has a bow in his hand, but no arrows. This may suggest that he conquers through political intrigue and deception rather than war. Rev. 13:14: “…he deceived the inhabitants of the earth.” He will not be unopposed. The first angel declares that the gospel will be preached on a scale never seen before. The gray areas will begin to disappear. People will be without excuse. In Matthew 24:5, Jesus warns about deceivers.

The second seal brings war on a massive scale. During this period, Babylon will fall. Jesus also predicted wars and rumors of wars (v. 6 and 7).

The third seal brings economic upheaval and massive inflation (A quart of wheat for a day’s wages…). This results in the famine predicted by Jesus in v. 7. The antichrist introduces the mark of the beast as part of his economic recovery program. The mark of the beast will erase all gray areas. All will be compelled to choose Christ or antichrist. There will be no more fence sitting.

The fourth seal brings death by sword, famine and plague (pestilence). Are we as Christians to worry about all this death? Rev. 14:13 says: “Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” Choose Christ, and you will be blessed!

The fifth seal describes Christian martyrs. Christ also talks about these martyrs in v. 9. Many people wonder if all who don’t take the mark of the beast will be put to death. The answer is no. If this were the case, there would be no one here to be taken up in the rapture. The martyrs shown under the alter are limited in number compared to the multitude that no one could count (Rev. 7:9), which is the raptured church. Also, in Luke’s account of the Olivet Discourse he says that some of you will be put to death (Luke 21:16).

The sixth seal describes the climax of history. Six is man’s number, and his days of ruling the earth are at an end. Rev. 6:12-17: “I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called on the mountains and the rocks, ‘Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?’”

This passage contains many of the signs that herald the coming of the Day of the Lord. Specifically, cosmic disturbances (Joel 2:31), the sky rolled up like a scroll, and stars falling like figs (Isaiah 34:4), men fleeing to the caves, and an earthquake (Is. 2:19), and announcement of coming wrath (Zeph. 1:14-15).

How many times have you read a commentary on this passage? Here Christ is coming on his throne, and those on the earth can see him, yet it is almost universally assigned to figurative language. Why? Because Christ is not supposed to come at this time!

Christians will be here when the Day of the Lord comes. In fact, the rapture takes place at the beginning of the Day of the Lord. See 1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Peter 3:10-12, 2 Thess. 2:1-3, 1 Thess. 4:16-17, and 1 Thess. 5:1-4.

This is when the angels harvest the earth and announce coming wrath (Rev. 14:14-19). The harvest of the earth is the rapture. This is described in the parable of the weeds in Matt. 13:24-43. The harvest of the earth is the end of the age (Matt. 13:39). The church will be here until the end of the age. See Matt. 24:19-20, 1 Cor. 1:8. The disciples wanted to know when the end of the age would come (Matt. 24:3). Christ said that the end of the age would come after these things: wars and rumors of wars (Matt. 24:6), persecution and death (v. 9-13), and the gospel would be preached to all nations (Matt. 24:14 and Matt. 28:19-20).

Now let’s compare the story in Matthew to see how it lines up with the seals and angels. Matt. 24:29-31 says: “Immediately after the distress (KJV tribulation) of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.” Could there be a clearer description of the rapture?

This point marks the end of the tribulation and the beginning of the Day of the Lord. Please note that wrath is not found before the sixth seal, the angel’s harvest of the earth, or the rapture described in Matt. 24:29-31. This is because “We are not appointed to suffer wrath” (I Thess. 5:9). Soon after, God’s wrath falls in the form of the trumpet and bowl judgments. Also note that there is no rapture found before this point in any of the three stories.

Incidentally, Joel uses the phrases “The moon turned to blood” (Joel 2:31) and “the moon will be darkened” (Joel 3:15) interchangeably. Both are used in reference to the coming of the Day of the Lord.

Starting in chapter 7, we find four angels waiting at the four corners of the earth holding back the four winds. They are told not to harm the land and the sea until the 144,000, from the 12 tribes of Israel, are sealed. They are protected from the wrath of God that is administered by the angels. Immediately after, starting with verse 9, we are shown the great multitude that no man could number, from every nation, tribe, people and language. This is the same group described in Rev. 15:2-4, at the end of the angels story. Is it not obvious that this is the raptured church? It is shown right after Christ comes on his throne, the elect are gathered by his angels, and the 144,000 are sealed. John is told: “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation.”

These people are not martyrs, as is commonly suggested. They have palm branches in their hands, which shows that they have bodies. They are a vast multitude.

In contrast, the martyrs are shown at the fifth seal, under the alter. The martyrs at the fifth seal are described as souls, and do not have their resurrected bodies yet. They are clearly limited in number.

This lengthy description of events between the sixth and seventh seals serves another purpose. The number seven belongs to God and is kept separate from the first six. You will see this principle applied throughout the book of Revelation.

Now the seventh seal is opened, and there is silence in heaven for about half an hour (see Zeph. 1:7). The seventh seal contains the seven trumpets, which are the wrath of God. The seven bowls describe the same events from a different perspective.

Now that the seven seals have been removed, the scroll can be opened. So what’s inside? This is just speculation, but I believe it contains the Title Deed to the Earth. It has an addendum, an eviction notice! The squatters must be removed before the house can be renovated and moved into.

The first trumpet and the first bowl deal with the earth. The second angel and bowl deal with the sea. The third trumpet and bowl deal with the rivers. The fourth trumpet and bowl deal with the sun. The fifth trumpet and bowl deal with darkness and pain.

The sixth trumpet deals with the Euphrates River. Four angels who are bound at the river are released to kill a third of mankind. The number of mounted troops there is 200,000,000. They are preparing for the battle of Armageddon. Implements of war are described. Some believe that this contains a description of an army tank.

Incidentally, it is incredible that John included this number. At the time of writing, there were probably not this many people in the whole world. At any rate, this would be beyond John’s ability to comprehend, yet he included it anyway.

China, with a population of one billion, could conceivably put together an army of 200,000,000.

The sixth bowl also describes the battle of Armageddon. The water of the Euphrates is dried up to make way for the kings of the east, summoned to battle.

The seventh trumpet is separated from the first six by an interlude, or parenthetical passage. It describes the ministry of the two witnesses, Elijah and Enoch, or, if you prefer, Elijah and Moses.

The seventh bowl is separated from the first six by a statement from Christ: “Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed” (Rev. 16:15). This would seem to be out of place here, as it doesn’t really fit with the rest of the story. I believe it is inserted here merely to separate the seventh bowl from the first six.

At the seventh trumpet (Rev. 11:15), it is announced that Christ has taken possession of the kingdom and has begun to reign. There came lightning, rumblings, thunder, an earthquake, and a great hailstorm.

At the seventh bowl (Rev. 16:17), it is announced: “It is done!” Then there came lightning, rumblings, thunder, an earthquake, and a great hailstorm.

Chapters 12, 13,17, and 18 are interludes, or parenthetical passages. Chapter 19 describes the wedding supper of the Lamb, and Christ returning on a horse, with the armies of heaven following.

Chapters 14 and 21describe the scene at the end of Daniel’s 70th week. The new heaven and new earth have been created. The new Jerusalem has come down out of heaven, and sits atop Mt. Zion. The 144,000 are seen on Mt. Zion with the Lamb. Rev. 14:5 marks the end of the story. At Rev. 14:6 the story starts over.

Although this document is copyrighted, permission is granted to reproduce and distribute it for non-profit uses.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Forever

I agree with some of what you have said but I believe you have got a few things mixed up.

What follows is long but please take the time to read it. And please invite your Dad to read it also.

The so called mysterious seven seals explained by Jesus as ONLY Jesus knows the Future and can open the seals.

Rev 5:3 But no one in Heaven or on Earth or beneath the Earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.

Rev 5:5 Do not weep the lion of the tribe of Judea the root of David has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.

Rev:5:6Then I saw a Lamb that looked as if it had been slain standing in the centre of the throne.

Rev:6:1 I watched as the Lamb open the first of the seven seals.

Do not believe the many varied Human Interpretations of Revelation it is Jesus alone who can explain the symbols of Revelation and the events of the future.

Does Jesus tell us of the events of the future else where in scripture?

Yes he does in Matthew 24:

1: And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2: And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3: And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age.

While his Disciples thought the destruction of the Temple would be the end of the world we know that was not the case. So in fact his disciples have asked him two separate questions.

1. When would the destruction of the Temple be?
2. What will be the signs of your coming?

Jesus answers the first question.

4And Jesus answered them, "Take heed that no one leads you astray.5For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and they will lead many astray. 6And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet.

Here we have a clear end to the first question and Jesus tells them that the destruction of the temple would come before the end of the age.

Jesus now answers the next question Second question, What will be the signs of your coming?

7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places: 8all this is but the beginning of the birth-pangs. 9"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10And then many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another. 11And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12And because wickedness is multiplied, most men's love will grow cold.13But he who endures to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come.

How does this compare with the future Jesus reveals in Revelation? Let’s compare and see

Rev 6:1: And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. 2: And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Jesus is depicted as coming on a white horse in Rev 19:11 however he has many crowns not one and he has a sword that comes out of his mouth not a bow in his hand. What does this Symbol mean. Is it the Catholic Church as the Catholics claim symbolising Righteousness. Or is it one of the many other fancy Human explanation of this symbol. Let us not forget it is Jesus alone who reveals, Jesus alone who knows the future.

In Matthew 24 Jesus says the first thing that will take place after his death is False Christianity followed by the destruction of the Temple.

Matt 24:-4: And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

So the white horse Jesus tells us represents False Christianity.

Rev 6:-3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. 4: And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

This Horse is Red and takes peace from the Earth does this agree with what Jesus said would happen next.
Matt 24:7: For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

I would have to say we have a match let’s continue.

Rev 6:-5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. 6: And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a days wages, and three measures of barley for a days wages; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.7: And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. 8: And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

These two horses seem to be quite obvious in there meaning. It is agreed by most Bible scholars to represent famine and death due to rising prices and lack of availability of food most likely brought on by the raging wars of Nation against Nation.. It should also be noted that these wars and famine and disease only affect a fourth of the world, not the whole world.

Does this agree with what Jesus says comes next in Matt 24:

7 and there shall be famines, and pestilence, and earthquakes, in divers places.8: All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Once again we seem to have a match.

Who are these Nations and Kingdoms that are at war?

Since we know from the division of Jesus' answer to the disciples, that this is after the fall of Judea in 70AD. We know that one of these Nations or Kingdoms is Rome. These verses speak of the disintegration and fall of the Roman Empire and the ensuing natural disasters, famine and disease that would bring death and the Dark ages.

Let’s continue on in Revelation

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

What does Jesus say happens next in Matt24:

Matt 24:9: Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and you shall be hated in all nations because of me.

Once again we have a match

Here Jesus moves through the main events that will lead to his return many hundreds of years in the future. Revelation clearly shows in these passages that this is the Fall of Rome, as the Saints killed by the Pagans are told to wait until more that speak their same testimony, are to be killed.

Now go back to Revelation 6:9 where Jesus describes the saints and their testimony in more detail. Here is depicted the souls of all who have been killed because of the word of God and their testimony they had maintained. What is the word of God? Is it the Old Testament, is it the New Testament? Who are these souls that are given white robes to wear? And who martyred them? And when? And what was their testimony?


End Part one

 

[Just The Facts]

Part Two


Lets examine what Jesus tells us else where in Revelation to find the explanation of these symbols.
First notice that the saints are told that there are others who were yet to be killed for the word of God and their testimony, as they had been. We find these others in Revelation 7:

9: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindred, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Here comes Jesus' explanation Rev7:13

13: And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these, which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14: And I said unto him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.15: Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple

Two things are clear here, first that this is taking place after the First Resurrection because unlike the first group of souls killed for the word of God and their testimony under the alter in Rev6:9, these souls are before the throne of God, in the Kingdom of God, they have been killed in the Great Tribulation and have been risen for the wedding feast. The other thing that is clear is that these people are from every Tribe, Nation, and Tongue, they are not just from the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

This persecution is described in Rev12

17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

It continues in Rev 13:

7: And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all Tribes, and nations and tongues,. 8: And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9: If any man have an ear, let him hear.10:If anyone is to go into captivity into captivity he shall go: If anyone is to be killed with the sword with the sword he must be killed. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Here we are told something else about these people. They are the Saints and they will be killed.
Rev 14 tells us more about these people

12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints: those that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

We are also told that their Testimony is the Testimony of Jesus Christ. We are told that the Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy in Rev 19:

10: And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, do not do it: I am but a fellows servant, with your brothers that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Now we know what their testimony was, it is was prophecy, this provides us with a keen insight into what these people of the great tribulation are killed for it is for their understanding of prophecy and for keeping the Ten Commandments (ie: the word of God)

Once again Jesus has explained in full his own symbols. Next Jesus gives us a very important look inside mainstream Christianity at this time.

Matt24:10 At that time many shall turn away from the faith, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11: And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12: And because wickedness multiplies, the love of most shall go cold.

Jesus plainly tells us that at the time of the decay of Rome and the persecution by the Pagans, Christians will start to fight amongst themselves and will HATE one another and that the Love and Patience that Christians are known for will turn cold. Although Jesus does not give us a date we can look in history for the change in the church that Jesus describes. History shows that the 4th century CA 302 -395 these events begin to unfold in the Church. The various Latin and Greek factions using the Power of Imperial favour to instigate wars and persecutions against the others believers. The process started with Constantine 325AD and continued for almost 200yrs. With the two sides gaining and losing control over the doctrine taught with successive wars that left hundreds of thousands dead. The next verse again confirms that the saints lose their lives but gain eternal life.

13: But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14: And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

What is this Gospel that is preached to the whole world? Is it the Gospel that is taught today the gospel of Jesus’ life? It is hard to see Jesus saying "this Gospel" meaning the Gospel of his life and deeds. Jesus meant the Gospel that he Taught. What does scripture tell us about his Gospel?

Matthew4:17: From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the Kingdom of God is at hand.

Matthew 10:7 And as you go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of God is at hand.

Matthew 13:18: Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.19 When any one hears the message of the kingdom.
Matthew 13:24 : Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field

Matthew 13:31:Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

This continues on in verse 44, 45, 47, then again in chapter 20:1, 21:43, 22:2

It is quite clear that Jesus’ Gospel was that the Kingdom of God was at hand, and was unfolding just as the prophets had said it would.

Jesus then goes on to tells us that this is the time of the Great Persecution and to describe in more detail the events of the Great Persecution. He tells us that people will say that Jesus has returned and is in the inner rooms, that prophecy is finally fulfilled. Now we see why Peter tells us to pay attention to prophecy in 2Peter 2:19 and the importance of the Prophetic word. I can not stress how important understanding prophecy is. Most churches ignore prophecy as impossible to understand. It is only impossible to understand if you refuse to except the word as it is. Centuries of erroneous teachings have hardened their hearts to the obvious truth. Since we know what the testimony of the Saints is, Prophecy, and we know that the Saints, the ones in white robes, are killed in the Great Tribulation for their keeping the ten commandments and their testimony about prophecy. Here Jesus tells us that those who are killed in the Great Tribulation are killed for refusing to believe the Anti-Christ is Jesus returned, they refuse to believe this false interpretation of prophetic scripture, which the Anti-Christ uses to convince the world that he is Christ returned. We are also told that unless God intervenes that all flesh on Earth would die, but for the Elect sake those days will be shortened. Here the saints are called the elect. Once again we know that this does not mean the Jewish people as many Christian scholars teach, because these people who come through the Great Tribulation, who wear the white robes are from every Tribe, Nation, and Tongue.

Matt 24:15 "So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 21: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23: Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24: For there shall arise false Christ's, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; in so much that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25: Behold, I have told you before. 26: Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not.27: For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Jesus goes on to talk about the signs after the great tribulation. Revelation 6 continues

12: And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13: And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14: And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15: And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16: And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This matches perfectly with what Jesus say in Matthew 24:

29: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

As we can plainly see from this text that Jesus has now returned to Earth to set up his Kingdom. He has finished answering the second question of the Apostles. We are also told that the generation that see the great persecution will not pass away before Jesus returns in his Glory.

This is what Jesus tells us the future will be, it is sure and can be trusted. Unlike the interpretations of men the word of God is sound. We do not need to guess what or who the four horsemen men are, Jesus tell us in very plain language all the events leading up to his return. Many churches teach that all these events happened in the first century AD, when Rome destroyed Jerusalem. I believe scripture has clearly shown us that this is not the truth. And that the words of God in Amos 3: are true. God has revealed all major events of history, into the future through Jesus' return, in advance as promised.

 

[ForeverEndeavor]

You wrote all that in less than 21 mins? Wow. lol. Sorry. I don't have time to address all your points but a few:

The so called mysterious seven seals explained by Jesus as ONLY Jesus knows the Future and can open the seals.

Rev 5:3 But no one in Heaven or on Earth or beneath the Earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.

Rev 5:5 Do not weep the lion of the tribe of Judea the root of David has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.

Rev:5:6Then I saw a Lamb that looked as if it had been slain standing in the centre of the throne.

Rev:6:1 I watched as the Lamb open the first of the seven seals.

Do not believe the many varied Human Interpretations of Revelation it is Jesus alone who can explain the symbols of Revelation and the events of the future.

Does Jesus tell us of the events of the future else where in scripture?

You are making some big assumtpions here. Only Jesus is worthy to open the seals. You added "only Jesus knows the future". Be careful not to add to the scriptures. If something is your opinion, you should make sure to not say it as a biblical fact. People who are not as familiar as me with these verses may just take your word for it. Unfortunately I have to go but I will try to look over the rest later. Thanks for your response!

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

The Seals cover the Future only jesus can open them and see the future there for only Jesus can tell us what the future is.

If you go back to the OT prophets you will see it is always Jesus who reveals the Future to them.

And No I wrote this along time ago, 15 Years ago now. I have posted it here a few times before.

I do not wish anyone to “take my word for it”

I have laid out the scripture for all to see. Read it when you have the time and you will see it is the Truth.

We must ALWAYS let scripture explain itself. When we fail to do this we wander into myths.

 

[visionary]

Once Jesus is found worthy to open up the seals, then the invitation to come up hither is offered so that we may understand. Paul when he experienced it could say whether it was in body or out of body experience. Visions are like that. I believe that if we accept the invitation to come up hither and prepare to experience it, God will give us the Mount Sinai experience, the Pentecost, the visions and dreams of prophets of old.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I find many points of disagreement, but can only hit on a few.

My view would be basically considered pre-wrath but there are differences between my views and Marvin Rosenthals. Rather than keep answering questions little by little about what I think, here's the sum-up from my website (this is a collaberative effort between myself and my father, who wrote this):


HOGGATT’S CHRONOLOGY

Is the book of Revelation chronological or not? Why does it say that Jesus takes possession of the kingdom in 11:15, yet people are warned about taking the mark of the beast in 14:9?

The main story in Revelation is divided into four groups of events. First we find seven seals, then seven trumpets, then angels with proclamations (largely ignored), then seven bowls. At the beginning of the seals story there is a scroll (Rev. 5:1). I believe the scroll is the key to unlocking the book of Revelation. The scroll is sealed with seven seals. Seals were a way of insuring the security of the message inside the scroll. Sealing wax was melted onto the edge of the paper, and stamped with the king’s stamp. If the seal was unbroken, the message was secure.

As the seals are broken, the story unfolds. The seventh seal contains the seven trumpets



Near the end of the seven trumpets, we find another scroll (Rev. 10:2). I believe it is the same scroll as the first, but it is now little, because John is told to eat the scroll, and he can’t eat a big scroll. He eats the scroll, and the story becomes a part of him. He is then told: “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings” (Rev. 10:11). He is not told: “You must continue to prophesy.” The story starts over. It is the same story, told from a different perspective. The seals story is the same as the angels story, and the trumpets story is the same as the bowls story.



SEALS……………….TRUMPETS……………..ANGELS……………..BOWLS





SEALS……………….TRUMPETS (start over)





ANGELS……………..BOWLS





So why is the story told twice? Because “Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses” (2 Cor. 13:1). See also Deut. 19:15. The first witness is the messenger (angel), and the second witness is John. Matters of great importance are given twice in the Bible. Gen. 41:32, in the story of Joseph and Pharaoh’s dream, says: “The reason the dream was given to Pharaoh in two forms is that the matter has been firmly decided by God, and God will do it soon.”

Marvin Byers, in his book The Final Victory, the Year 2000, has pointed out that there are 42 similarities between the seals/trumpets story and the angels/bowls story, making them essentially identical. He fails to note, however, the coming of Christ at the sixth seal (Rev. 6:16), and the harvest of the earth (rapture) at the sixth angel. .

No, Revelation is not in chronological order but there is an order to it. Before the seventh seal, we read about the 144,000. Before the 7th trumpet, we read a parenthtical passage about the 7 thunders and the little book.

I think you are going way off in thinking the story is told twice. John is instructed to not write what the 7 thunders (which is God) said. Instead he is told that he must prophesi again. Could it be that he is one of the two witnesses?
The parenthetical from Rev. 12 - 14 starts at the beginning. It covers the span of time. We see the AC coming in the 1st seal, but Rev. 12- 14 shows us the kingdom that develops as a result. Rev. 17 - 18 is also parenthetical - she doesn't just show up then.

Then there is this after the 4th trumpet:
Rev 8:13 Then I looked, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!"
1st woe - the 5th trumpet
2nd woe - the 6th trumpet
3rd woe - the 7th trumpet announcement? or is it that the 7th trumpet incorporates the 7 vial judgments? I think the latter.

The fifth seal describes Christian martyrs. Christ also talks about these martyrs in v. 9. Many people wonder if all who don’t take the mark of the beast will be put to death. The answer is no. If this were the case, there would be no one here to be taken up in the rapture. The martyrs shown under the alter are limited in number compared to the multitude that no one could count (Rev. 7:9), which is the raptured church. Also, in Luke’s account of the Olivet Discourse he says that some of you will be put to death (Luke 21:16).

Several things here:
1. Luke's account includes what happens before the birthpains.
Luk 21:10 Then He continued by saying to them, "Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom,

Luk 21:11 and there will be great earthquakes, and in various places plagues and famines; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.

Luk 21:12 "But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name's sake.Luk 21:13 "It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony.
Luke 21 includes all the time of the Gentiles - when His gospel goes forth.

2. The fifth seal - let's look at who is under the alter:
Rev 6:9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

Rev 6:10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

Rev 6:11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until {the number of} their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

In Revelation, when the prophecy deals with those who proclaimed Christ, it says:
Rev 1:2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, {even} to all that he saw.

Rev 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

It doesn't say that the souls under the altar hold to the testimony of Jesus.


"How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

This is a very OT lament!
Psa 6:3 And my soul is greatly dismayed; But You, O LORD--how long?

Psa 13:1 How long, O LORD? Will You forget me forever? How long will You hide Your face from me?

Psa 13:2 How long shall I take counsel in my soul, {Having} sorrow in my heart all the day? How long will my enemy be exalted over me?


Hab 1:2 How long, O LORD, will I call for help, And You will not hear? I cry out to You, "Violence!" Yet You do not save.

I can't say that the souls under the alter are Christian martyrs (as in being of the church since the coming of Christ) - but are Old Testament saints.

The sixth seal describes the climax of history. Six is man’s number, and his days of ruling the earth are at an end. Rev. 6:12-17: “I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called on the mountains and the rocks, ‘Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?’”

However there are significant differences with the 7th vial.
Rev 16:17 Then the seventh {angel} poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, "It is done."

Rev 16:18 And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake {was it, and} so mighty

Rev 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Rev 16:21 And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, *came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague *was extremely severe.

In the 6th seal, the mountains are moved - but they still exiat as men try to hide in them : Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called on the mountains and the rocks,
In the 7th vial, the mountains are not found.

In the 6th seal, men are afraid of the wrath of God.
In the 7th vial, men blaspheme God.

In the 6th seal, there is no mention of hail.
In the 7th vial, the hail is so big as to weigh 100 pounds.

I can't say the 6th seal is the "climax of history'.


I have to continue this in a bit.

 

[whitestar]

I find many points of disagreement, but can only hit on a few.



No, Revelation is not in chronological order but there is an order to it. Before the seventh seal, we read about the 144,000. Before the 7th trumpet, we read a parenthtical passage about the 7 thunders and the little book.

I think you are going way off in thinking the story is told twice. John is instructed to not write what the 7 thunders (which is God) said. Instead he is told that he must prophesi again. Could it be that he is one of the two witnesses?
The parenthetical from Rev. 12 - 14 starts at the beginning. It covers the span of time. We see the AC coming in the 1st seal, but Rev. 12- 14 shows us the kingdom that develops as a result. Rev. 17 - 18 is also parenthetical - she doesn't just show up then.

Then there is this after the 4th trumpet:
Rev 8:13 Then I looked, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven, saying with a loud voice, "Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!"
1st woe - the 5th trumpet
2nd woe - the 6th trumpet
3rd woe - the 7th trumpet announcement? or is it that the 7th trumpet incorporates the 7 vial judgments? I think the latter.



Several things here:
1. Luke's account includes what happens before the birthpains.
Luk 21:10 Then He continued by saying to them, "Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom,

Luk 21:11 and there will be great earthquakes, and in various places plagues and famines; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.

Luk 21:12 "But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name's sake.Luk 21:13 "It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony.
Luke 21 includes all the time of the Gentiles - when His gospel goes forth.

2. The fifth seal - let's look at who is under the alter:
Rev 6:9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

Rev 6:10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

Rev 6:11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until {the number of} their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

In Revelation, when the prophecy deals with those who proclaimed Christ, it says:
Rev 1:2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, {even} to all that he saw.

Rev 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

It doesn't say that the souls under the altar hold to the testimony of Jesus.


"How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

This is a very OT lament!
Psa 6:3 And my soul is greatly dismayed; But You, O LORD--how long?

Psa 13:1 How long, O LORD? Will You forget me forever? How long will You hide Your face from me?

Psa 13:2 How long shall I take counsel in my soul, {Having} sorrow in my heart all the day? How long will my enemy be exalted over me?


Hab 1:2 How long, O LORD, will I call for help, And You will not hear? I cry out to You, "Violence!" Yet You do not save.

I can't say that the souls under the alter are Christian martyrs (as in being of the church since the coming of Christ) - but are Old Testament saints.




However there are significant differences with the 7th vial.
Rev 16:17 Then the seventh {angel} poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, "It is done."

Rev 16:18 And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake {was it, and} so mighty

Rev 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Rev 16:21 And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, *came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague *was extremely severe.

In the 6th seal, the mountains are moved - but they still exiat as men try to hide in them : Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called on the mountains and the rocks,
In the 7th vial, the mountains are not found.

In the 6th seal, men are afraid of the wrath of God.
In the 7th vial, men blaspheme God.

In the 6th seal, there is no mention of hail.
In the 7th vial, the hail is so big as to weigh 100 pounds.

I can't say the 6th seal is the "climax of history'.


I have to continue this in a bit.

I have to agree with FreeinChrist here....especially her point in saying the story is not told twice....some even say three times just giving more detail or something. This is a common idea repeated to us in church studies on this. I have often wondered what would be the point in John simply repeating things? Anyway she has made some excellent points here that I hope are seriously considered. I think it might help to realize some of these things such as the mountains may not be literal mountains but stand for something else in the bible.

God bless

 

[FreeinChrist]

This is when the angels harvest the earth and announce coming wrath (Rev. 14:14-19). The harvest of the earth is the rapture. This is described in the parable of the weeds in Matt. 13:24-43. The harvest of the earth is the end of the age (Matt. 13:39). The church will be here until the end of the age. See Matt. 24:19-20, 1 Cor. 1:8. The disciples wanted to know when the end of the age would come (Matt. 24:3). Christ said that the end of the age would come after these things: wars and rumors of wars (Matt. 24:6), persecution and death (v. 9-13), and the gospel would be preached to all nations (Matt. 24:14 and Matt. 28:19-20).

I have to disagree with your timing. AGain this is a parenthetical passage and out of the chonrology. It is referring to the Battle of Armageddon, and fits in with Zechariah 12.

Starting in chapter 7, we find four angels waiting at the four corners of the earth holding back the four winds. They are told not to harm the land and the sea until the 144,000, from the 12 tribes of Israel, are sealed. They are protected from the wrath of God that is administered by the angels. Immediately after, starting with verse 9, we are shown the great multitude that no man could number, from every nation, tribe, people and language. This is the same group described in Rev. 15:2-4, at the end of the angels story. Is it not obvious that this is the raptured church? It is shown right after Christ comes on his throne, the elect are gathered by his angels, and the 144,000 are sealed. John is told: “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation.”

NO, it is not obvious that it is the raptured church. I have to agree with Joseph Seiss that the multitude are those who were not part of the raptured church. They are those who came to Christ during the seals. And what we see is them in spirit, not resurrected. (Same with the 144,000 - are they resurrected in REv. 14? Or are they in heaven as spirit until Rev. 20. ) Why are they carrying palm branches - what about the lack of crowns? Why did they have to "wash their garments"?

Now the seventh seal is opened, and there is silence in heaven for about half an hour (see Zeph. 1:7). The seventh seal contains the seven trumpets, which are the wrath of God. The seven bowls describe the same events from a different perspective.

I disagree. The trumpets do not show the same events from a different perspective. In saying that you are being inconsistent in saying that his wrath does not come til the 6th seal, for before the trumpets are sounded, we see that they are judgment and wrath of God!
Rev 8:3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.

Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel's hand.

Rev 8:5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and threw it to the earth; and there followed peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

Rev 8:6 And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound them.That is a picture of wrath and judgment. When God sent His wrath on Egypt - it included hail with fire, water turning to blood, locust, etc.

so it is inconsistent to say this is a retelling of the same in the seals, and then say there was no wrath til the 6th seal.

The first trumpet and the first bowl deal with the earth.

???
Rev 8:7 The first sounded, and there came hail and fire, mixed with blood, and they were thrown to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

Rev 16:2 So the first {angel} went and poured out his bowl on the earth; and it became a loathsome and malignant sore on the people who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped his image.

They are not the same. In Rev. 16, by saying it was poured on the earth, it is to give the direction of it - from heaven to earth. There is no indication that the earth itself is harmed by the first bowl (though it has already taken a beating by the trumpets).

The second angel and bowl deal with the sea.

Rev 8:8 The second angel sounded, and {something} like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea; and a third of the sea became blood,

Rev 8:9 and a third of the creatures which were in the sea and had life, died; and a third of the ships were destroyed.

Rev 16:3 The second {angel} poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like {that} of a dead man; and every living thing in the sea died.

God doesn't lie. 1/3 is not the same as all and every as used in 16:3.

The third trumpet and bowl deal with the rivers.

Rev 8:10 The third angel sounded, and a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of waters.

Rev 8:11 The name of the star is called Wormwood; and a third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the waters, because they were made bitter.




Rev 16:4 Then the third {angel} poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of waters; and they became blood.

Again, significant difference Between these. 1/3 versus all, again. And there is no indication that the fresh water turns to blood in the third trumpet - but are only made bitter.

The fourth trumpet and bowl deal with the sun.

But differently:
Rev 8:12 The fourth angel sounded, and a third of the sun and a third of the moon and a third of the stars were struck, so that a third of them would be darkened and the day would not shine for a third of it, and the night in the same way.

Rev 16:8 The fourth {angel} poured out his bowl upon the sun, and it was given to it to scorch men with fire.

Rev 16:9 Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.

Less light (more darkness) vs. scorching heat and pain. Not the same.

The fifth trumpet and bowl deal with darkness and pain.

fifth trumpet - 1st woe:
Rev 9:1 Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him.

Rev 9:2 He opened the bottomless pit, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit.

Rev 9:3 Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

Rev 9:4 They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Rev 9:5 And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.

A time period is given.
Rev 16:10 Then the fifth {angel} poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain,

Rev 16:11 and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.

The sores are from the first vial. Has God done something like this before?
Exd 10:21 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand toward the sky, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even a darkness which may be felt."

Exd 10:22 So Moses stretched out his hand toward the sky, and there was thick darkness in all the land of Egypt for three days.

Exd 10:23 They did not see one another, nor did anyone rise from his place for three days, but all the sons of Israel had light in their dwellings.

The sixth trumpet deals with the Euphrates River. Four angels who are bound at the river are released to kill a third of mankind. The number of mounted troops there is 200,000,000. They are preparing for the battle of Armageddon. Implements of war are described. Some believe that this contains a description of an army tank.

Rev 9:12 The first woe is past; behold, two woes are still coming after these things.

Rev 9:13 Then the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

Rev 9:14 one saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."

Rev 9:15 And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they would kill a third of mankind.

Rev 9:16 The number of the armies of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.

Rev 9:17 And this is how I saw in the vision the horses and those who sat on them: {the riders} had breastplates {the color} of fire and of hyacinth and of brimstone; and the heads of the horses are like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths proceed fire and smoke and brimstone.Rev 9:18 A third of mankind was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which proceeded out of their mouths.Rev 9:19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents and have heads, and with them they do harm.




Rev 16:12 The sixth {angel} poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east.

Rev 16:13 And I saw {coming} out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;

Rev 16:14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.

Rev 16:15 ("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.")

Rev 16:16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.

I can see why folks tend to think these are the same, but they are not. In the 6th trumpet, it is the four angels who kill 1/3 of mankind through fire, smoke and brimstone. There is no mention of Armageddon. In contrast, the 6th vial tells of a gathering of armies from the east of Jeruslaem, and they gather at Har-Megedon which is northwest of Jerusalem...and we are told in Rev. 19 they are killled by Christ and His armies.

It isn't a retelling of the same thing. Theses differences are significant.

The seventh trumpet is separated from the first six by an interlude, or parenthetical passage. It describes the ministry of the two witnesses, Elijah and Enoch, or, if you prefer, Elijah and Moses.

The seventh bowl is separated from the first six by a statement from Christ: “Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed” (Rev. 16:15). This would seem to be out of place here, as it doesn’t really fit with the rest of the story. I believe it is inserted here merely to separate the seventh bowl from the first six.

At the seventh trumpet (Rev. 11:15), it is announced that Christ has taken possession of the kingdom and has begun to reign. There came lightning, rumblings, thunder, an earthquake, and a great hailstorm.

At the seventh bowl (Rev. 16:17), it is announced: “It is done!” Then there came lightning, rumblings, thunder, an earthquake, and a great hailstorm.

The 7th trumpet is the announcement. The tense is aorist. The 7th trumpet brings the 3rd woe which is the vials.
The 7th vial :
Rev 16:17 Then the seventh {angel} poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, "It is done."

Rev 16:18 And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake {was it, and} so mighty.

Rev 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Rev 16:21 And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, *came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague *was extremely severe.

The men are still alive and blaspheming God. The battle is in Rev. 19, when Christ descends on a white horse with His armies and destroys the armies and the beast and false prophet are taken and put in the lake of fire.

When I studied Revelation inductively, it was with a group of about 20. Three of the group were prewrath, sold on prewrath, and had closed minds throughout the study(two had joined the last year of it). They finally presented the prewrath view at the end of the 2nd year...and didn't convince anyone because we had looked at the word of God ourselves with open minds and could pick out where it did not fit. I am not convinced by your alterations of it, either.

 

[ForeverEndeavor]

In the 6th seal, the mountains are moved - but they still exiat as men try to hide in them : Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called on the mountains and the rocks,
In the 7th vial, the mountains are not found.

In the 6th seal, men are afraid of the wrath of God.
In the 7th vial, men blaspheme God.

In the 6th seal, there is no mention of hail.
In the 7th vial, the hail is so big as to weigh 100 pounds.

Sorry to be just now responding to this. I think I missed it before. Are you saying that I compared the seals to the bowls (vials)? I was comparing them to the events in the angels and the TRUMPETS to the BOWLS. I'm not sure if that means you didn't really read what I wrote or if you just really misunderstood what I said but either way, take another look at the comparison before you refute it please.

I have to disagree with your timing. AGain this is a parenthetical passage and out of the chonrology. It is referring to the Battle of Armageddon, and fits in with Zechariah 12.

This is highly assumptive.

NO, it is not obvious that it is the raptured church. I have to agree with Joseph Seiss that the multitude are those who were not part of the raptured church. They are those who came to Christ during the seals. And what we see is them in spirit, not resurrected.

Well of course this would HAVE to be the case if you are first assuming a pre-trib rapture. But unfortunately, that assumption is unfounded.

I disagree. The trumpets do not show the same events from a different perspective. In saying that you are being inconsistent in saying that his wrath does not come til the 6th seal, for before the trumpets are sounded, we see that they are judgment and wrath of God!
Rev 8:3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.

Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel's hand.

Rev 8:5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and threw it to the earth; and there followed peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

Rev 8:6 And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound them.That is a picture of wrath and judgment. When God sent His wrath on Egypt - it included hail with fire, water turning to blood, locust, etc.

so it is inconsistent to say this is a retelling of the same in the seals, and then say there was no wrath til the 6th seal.

Again, what did you read? I think for some reason you think I am comparing the bowls to the seals. Please go back and reread it.

They are not the same. In Rev. 16, by saying it was poured on the earth, it is to give the direction of it - from heaven to earth. There is no indication that the earth itself is harmed by the first bowl (though it has already taken a beating by the trumpets).

I agree that these are not necessarily the same events. The comparison is not to show the events being sysnonymous but to show that they align chronologically.

I can see why folks tend to think these are the same, but they are not. In the 6th trumpet, it is the four angels who kill 1/3 of mankind through fire, smoke and brimstone. There is no mention of Armageddon. In contrast, the 6th vial tells of a gathering of armies from the east of Jeruslaem, and they gather at Har-Megedon which is northwest of Jerusalem...and we are told in Rev. 19 they are killled by Christ and His armies.

It isn't a retelling of the same thing. Theses differences are significant.

Again, I think you missed the point that the timelines coincide. I never said the events described were necesarily the same thing. You did have good arguments but the problem is, they were not arguing the point that I was trying to make. You argued that the events were not the same, and again, we are not in disagreement here.

 

[ForeverEndeavor]

BTW there is an excellent in-depth commentary on Revelation here:
http://www.revelationcommentary.org/introduction.html

Although I do not agree 100%, I would say that the author is mostly right on.

Oh yeah and what's with the whole "reputation" thing on this forum. Is this a popularity contest? I think Jesus would probably rank pretty low in the "people pleaser" arena.

 

[CrossWord]

ForeverEndeavor:

Just a few observations, if I may.

(Incidentally, I see a prewrath rapture and a pretrib rapture. Any Christian that misses a pretrib rapture will most likely end up getting killed during the tribulation, IMO. The only question is, how inclusive is the pretrib rapture.)

Its clear that you, like other exclusive post-tribbers, see huge numbers of Christians going through the Great Tribulation and coming out of it unscathed:

Many people wonder if all who don't take the mark of the beast will be put to death. The answer is no. If this were the case, there would be no one here to be taken up in the rapture.

(Of course your inference above presupposes no pretrib rapture.)

Elsewhere you state the great multitude of Rev 7:9 that came out of the Tribulation were not martyred:

These people are not martyrs, as is commonly suggested. They have palm branches in their hands, which shows that they have bodies. They are a vast multitude.

I don't think the situation is depicted like that anywhere in Revelation. In fact, it is the exact opposite:

(Rev 13:15-16 NKJV) He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads.

So anyone who does not worship the beast is killed, and all on the earth receive the mark. That must mean that those who refused the mark were killed. I don't know if the above verses necessarily imply literally "all" Christians being killed who are on earth during this time, but certainly it will be close enough for government work.

To receive the mark of course results in eternal damnation (Rev 14:9-10 NKJV).

This is when the angels harvest the earth and announce coming wrath (Rev. 14:14-19). The harvest of the earth is the rapture.

Of course, a rapture (and resurrection) will occur at the seventh trumpet (i..e. prewrath), the other rapture occuring previously, IMO. However, I think the primary implication of the reaping of the Harvest is not a rapture, but rather the massive wholescale death of Christians still on the earth during the Great Tribulation.

Only a few verses previously, we were told that anyone who did not worship the beast would be killed, and that all on earth would receive the mark. Then comes the following admonition:

(Rev 14:12-13 NKJV) Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."

You put a postive feel good spin on this scenario:

Are we as Christians to worry about all this death? Rev. 14:13 says: “Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” Choose Christ, and you will be blessed!

However, Christians are told (in so many words), "If you're on earth during the Great Tribulation, and if you worship the beast or take his mark, you'll be damned to eternal torment. However, if you don't worship the beast, you will be killed and suffer physical death. But don't worry about physical death. If you die during the great tribulation, you are in fact blessed." So in essence, for any Christian on Earth during the Great Tribulation, death is the only escape.

The very next verse after 14:13 (see above) is where the reaping of the earth's harvest is described. As stated, it represents the wholescale slaughter of Christians. Aside from the previous verses, how do we know this? Because the reaping of the Grapes of Wrath follows, and there is no doubt that that reaping repesents the death of the wicked. So, you have two great reapings - the Reaping of the Earth's Harvest (representing the death of the saints during the Tribulation) and the Reaping of the Grapes of Wrath (representing the death of the unsaved during the Day of the Lord, i.e. the bowl judgments).

So, are all Christians on earth during the Great Tribulation? NO. There is a pretrib rapture for those who are prepared. (Note to ForeverEndeavor: Most of the following analysis concerns Chapter 12-14, which you do not discuss, i.e. the interim narratives between the The Seven Trumpets and The Seven Bowls.) The only questions are - how inclusive is this pretrib rapture, and what does it mean to be "prepared"? I will leave those question unanswered for the moment. But that there will be Christians in Heaven during the great tribulation cannot be disputed:

(Rev 12:9-12 NKJV) So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

So, in the above passage, Christians are told to rejoice because the dragon has been cast down to earth. They are to rejoice, despite the fact that the dragon is full of wrath that his time is short. Why should Christians be rejoicing if they're still on the earth (i.e. where the Dragon has been cast down to). Because those Christians who are rejoicing are not on the earth ("rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them").

The dragon is mentioned for the first time in Revelation Chapter 12. Then in 13:1 the beast (i.e. the AntiChrist) comes on the scenes. The beast is in essence the physical manifestation of the Dragon on the earth, as Christ was the physical manifestation of God on the earth.

(Rev 13:2 NKJV) Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.

As noted previously, once the AntiChrist is on the scenes, Christians still on earth start dying in great numbers. So, once again, who are those rejoicing about Satan being cast down to earth?

Some might say that those rejoicing in 12:9-12 are not raptured saints, but rather saints from the Old Testament, or something. But how does chapter 12 begin - with two metaphors for a rapture:

(Rev 12:5 NKJV) She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

(Rev 12:6 NKJV) Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Rev 12:5 represents Christ's ascension certainly, but also a pretrib rapture. Revelation says that Christians will also rule the earth with a rod of iron, and Christians are the body of Christ. The fact that the male Child is a newborn signifies innocence, purity, etc - i.e. those who were "prepared" for the pretrib rapture.

12:6 also represents a rapture - for a second group. This is clear from the subsequent description of it in Chapter 12:

(Rev 12:13-17 NKJV) Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So, the woman flies to her refuge on the wings of an eagle. (What might that signify?) How do we know the "wilderness" she flies to isn't on the earth somewhere? Because in 12:12 it says that only those who dwell in Heaven should rejoice. Only woe awaits those who dwell on the earth. Actually, I have to say I'm not clear whether the woman flying to the wilderness represents the pretrib rapture. I only know that where she escapes to isn't on the earth.

Note also it says above that the Dragon is enraged when the woman escapes and goes to make war with her other offspring. The other offspring are those Christians still on the earth during the time of the AntiChrist. In Chapter 13 it says not only will the Beast make war with the saints, but overcome them.

While the AntiChrist is busy killing those Christians still on Earth we see more references to those who dwell in heaven:

(Rev 13:6 NKJV) Then [the Beast] opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.

Furthermore in the midst of the description of all the carnage of Christians on earth we see the following interlude:

Rev 14:1-4 NKJV) Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.... They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

Note the 144000 are standing before the Throne of God, so clearly they're in Heaven. How do we know the above passage isn't some fast forward to a time after the AntiChrist? Because of Rev 12:12:

(Rev 12:12 NKJV) "Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

So, the 144000 are in Heaven rejoicing. Those Christians still on earth are not. The 144000 are also described as virgins, and thus probably coorespond to the infant taken up to Heaven in Chapter 12. However, they may coorespond to the woman, I'm not sure. (It is also not clear whether the number 144000 is symbolic.) Note also that that the 144000 are described as "firstfruits" which is what Christ is called:

(1 Cor 15:20 NKJV) But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

(Continued below)

 

[CrossWord]

(Continued)

So, to sum up - for any Christian on earth during AntiChrist - wholescale slaughter. However, all Christians are not on earth during the time of the AntiChrist. This is clear from several verses in Rev Chap 12-14. Furthermore Chapter 12 begins with narratives symbolic of rapture events.

And once again in my opinion there are two raptures - a pretrib rapture and prewrath rapture. The first rapture is probably much more exclusive. Who are those that are "prepared" for the first rapture? For the answer, see the parable of the Wise and Foolish Servant in Matthew Chapter 24.

(Further notes on two raptures:

Two occurences of the phrase "come up here" in Revelation - in 4:1 right before the seals are opened, and then in Chapter 11, in almost the exact middle of the book.

Two witnesses told "Come up here".

Two rapture events symbolized in Revelation Chapter 12.)

Other:

(Rev 3:4 NKJV) "You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

(Rev 3:10 NKJV) "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

And on Matthew 24:30-31:

"then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"

"All the tribes of the earth" - does this include Christians? NO. Why not? Possibly because they're already in Heaven, or died during the tribulation and still under the altar. Furthermore, I don't think Christians would be mourning at Christ's coming.

Where are the saints gathered from - the earth?

"and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

(Where is "earth" mentioned above?)

Starting in chapter 7, we find four angels waiting at the four corners of the earth holding back the four winds. They are told not to harm the land and the sea until the 144,000, from the 12 tribes of Israel, are sealed. They are protected from the wrath of God that is administered by the angels. Immediately after, starting with verse 9, we are shown the great multitude that no man could number, from every nation, tribe, people and language. This is the same group described in Rev. 15:2-4, at the end of the angels story. Is it not obvious that this is the raptured church? It is shown right after Christ comes on his throne, the elect are gathered by his angels, and the 144,000 are sealed. John is told: 'These are they who have come out of the great tribulation.' These people are not martyrs, as is commonly suggested. They have palm branches in their hands, which shows that they have bodies. They are a vast multitude.

In contrast, the martyrs are shown at the fifth seal, under the alter. The martyrs at the fifth seal are described as souls, and do not have their resurrected bodies yet. They are clearly limited in number.

You seem to be inferring that the supposedly small size of the altar implies that only a few Christians die during the tribulation. That's just not a correct inference at all (for reasons already stated). Also, those under the altar are given a white robe. Those standing before the throne in 7:9 are said to have made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb. Its the same group. You also seem to be equating the 144000 to the group before the throne in 7:9. I do not agree with that. They are two different groups. (Note: please read previous post.)

CrossWord

 

[CrossWord]

\

 

[justified]

So why is the story told twice? Because “Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses” (2 Cor. 13:1). See also Deut. 19:15. The first witness is the messenger (angel), and the second witness is John. Matters of great importance are given twice in the Bible. Gen. 41:32, in the story of Joseph and Pharaoh’s dream, says: “The reason the dream was given to Pharaoh in two forms is that the matter has been firmly decided by God, and God will do it soon.”

I'm impressed that you guys noticed this on your own. It has been known since the patristics wrote, actually, that the Bowls -- Trumpets -- Seals are the same thing repeated with very slight variations. And in fact, it was known that it is mostly a re-doing of OT plagues. What is why the author does it this way. Just to say it's because of the witness-law of the OT isn't enough, because there's nothin in the text to suggest that's why he did it. Nevertheless, it's an interesting suggestion.

 

[ForeverEndeavor]

Crossword, I'm not going to address all your comments because I think I can give a general response. You did make alot of good points but a large amount of you're respone was heresay and assumptive (not everything though). And, while you did give scripturat reference along with your response, in many cases, your argument was subject to interpretation. A huge problem I see is that people first assume their views are correct, and then fit the scriptures into them. For example, you said "I see a pre-wrath and a pre-trib rapture. The problem here is that for any scripture to even remotely imply a pre-trib rapture, you first have to assume a pre-trib rapture. If there is no clear description of a pre-trib rapture (which there isn't), we must not interpret other scripture under that assumption.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Sorry to be just now responding to this. I think I missed it before. Are you saying that I compared the seals to the bowls (vials)? I was comparing them to the events in the angels and the TRUMPETS to the BOWLS. I'm not sure if that means you didn't really read what I wrote or if you just really misunderstood what I said but either way, take another look at the comparison before you refute it please.

You wrote:
"The sixth seal describes the climax of history. Six is man’s number, and his days of ruling the earth are at an end."

Perhaps in saying it is "the climax of history", you are not being as clear as you think?

I would think that the "climax of history" is the Second Coming itself.

This is highly assumptive.

Not as assumptive as you are being in saying the vials retell the story.

Well of course this would HAVE to be the case if you are first assuming a pre-trib rapture. But unfortunately, that assumption is unfounded.

ACtually I went into studying Revelation from a nonpretrib viewpoint. I was posttrib and unclear about premil for many, many years.

Again, what did you read? I think for some reason you think I am comparing the bowls to the seals. Please go back and reread it.

I did.
And this is what I responded to:
"Starting in chapter 7, we find four angels waiting at the four corners of the earth holding back the four winds. They are told not to harm the land and the sea until the 144,000, from the 12 tribes of Israel, are sealed. They are protected from the wrath of God that is administered by the angels. Immediately after, starting with verse 9, we are shown the great multitude that no man could number, from every nation, tribe, people and language. This is the same group described in Rev. 15:2-4, at the end of the angels story. Is it not obvious that this is the raptured church? It is shown right after Christ comes on his throne, the elect are gathered by his angels, and the 144,000 are sealed. John is told: “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation.”"



And I disagree that it is obvious that the great multitude is the raptured church. that is why I wrote:
NO, it is not obvious that it is the raptured church. I have to agree with Joseph Seiss that the multitude are those who were not part of the raptured church. They are those who came to Christ during the seals. And what we see is them in spirit, not resurrected. (Same with the 144,000 - are they resurrected in REv. 14? Or are they in heaven as spirit until Rev. 20. ) Why are they carrying palm branches - what about the lack of crowns? Why did they have to "wash their garments"?

 

[ForeverEndeavor]

"The sixth seal describes the climax of history. Six is man’s number, and his days of ruling the earth are at an end."

Perhaps in saying it is "the climax of history", you are not being as clear as you think?

I would think that the "climax of history" is the Second Coming itself.

ok. Fine. Whatever.

ACtually I went into studying Revelation from a nonpretrib viewpoint. I was posttrib and unclear about premil for many, many years.

I wasn't talking about before, I was talking about now. You are assuming a pre-trib rapture now right?

And I disagree that it is obvious that the great multitude is the raptured church. that is why I wrote:
NO, it is not obvious that it is the raptured church. I have to agree with Joseph Seiss that the multitude are those who were not part of the raptured church. They are those who came to Christ during the seals. And what we see is them in spirit, not resurrected. (Same with the 144,000 - are they resurrected in REv. 14? Or are they in heaven as spirit until Rev. 20. ) Why are they carrying palm branches - what about the lack of crowns? Why did they have to "wash their garments"?

If they are those who came to Christ during the seals then how did they get there? They were raptured. And of course since you are assuming a pre-trib rapture, they would have to be those who came to christ after the supposed "first rapture" (not to be mistaken for the one after the seals). However, as I have said before, this verse would not appear to say that unless you are first assuming a pre-trib rapture. Which you are.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I wasn't talking about before, I was talking about now. You are assuming a pre-trib rapture now right?

I came to a conclusion that the church is raptured pretrib through study - inductive study - and from a previous position of being postrib.
That is different from seeing pretrib in scripture because i first assume it.

If they are those who came to Christ during the seals then how did they get there? They were raptured. And of course since you are assuming a pre-trib rapture, they would have to be those who came to christ after the supposed "first rapture" (not to be mistaken for the one after the seals). However, as I have said before, this verse would not appear to say that unless you are first assuming a pre-trib rapture. Which you are.

I don't believe they are resurrected in that passage, which is a point of agreement I have with the Rev. Joseph Seiss. I also believe that when we die, our spirits go to heaven if we are Christ's, and that is the case with the great multitude.

 

[ForeverEndeavor]

I came to a conclusion that the church is raptured pretrib through study - inductive study - and from a previous position of being postrib.
That is different from seeing pretrib in scripture because i first assume it.

ok, I just am curious how you can come to that conclusion inductively at all. Because there would have to be a scripture that clearly states the rapture before the trib in order for it to be inductive. (maybe you did see that in a verse, I just don't see it).