My Thoughts

Zaha Torte said:

I was talking about suffering - not just pain - but as a person who suffers from constant pain, I can attest that the Lord is helping me learn patience and "long-suffering" - a term often used in the scriptures.

Click to expand...

Sorry, I tend to use suffering and pain interchangeably. I view suffering as a form of pain. So I was asking about suffering too in that question.

I do appreciate the responses here. I am curious how religious people view pain/suffering. As an atheist though I do worry about the possible dangers of seeing value and meaning in pain/suffering that might not be there in reality. But, some beliefs are more harmful than others.

partinobodycular said:

I'm sorry, but if you believe that suffering is about teaching us obedience then you believe in a completely different God than I do. Suffering is about teaching us patience, and compassion, and courage. It's 1st Corinthians 13 for the soul. Because it's only through suffering that we truly gain compassion for those with whom we have little else in common... except the ubiquitousness of suffering. It's not about teaching us obedience toward God. It's about teaching us admiration... not toward God, but toward each other... but then again, those are the same thing.

Click to expand...

Patience, compassion and courage are necessary attributes for us to gain so that we can be obedient to God.

"Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5:8-9)

The Lord Jesus Christ was already perfectly patient, compassionate and courageous - yet He still learned obedience through His suffering.

MehGuy said:

Sorry, I tend to use suffering and pain interchangeably. I view suffering as a form of pain. So I was asking about suffering too in that question.

I do appreciate the responses here. I am curious how religious people view pain/suffering. As an atheist though I do worry about the possible dangers of seeing value and meaning in pain/suffering that might not be there in reality. But, some beliefs are more harmful than others.

Click to expand...

Whether you believe in God or not - things can be learned from suffering.

And you can look for purpose or just whine - but I prefer to the former.

Zaha Torte said:

"Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5:8-9)

The Lord Jesus Christ was already perfectly patient, compassionate and courageous - yet He still learned obedience through His suffering.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, understanding the bible is about more than simply reading the words, it's about understanding the spirit behind them. Which is often made more difficult by our unfamiliarity with the nuances of the original text.

In this case it might be helpful to refer to the Strong's:

hupakoé: Obedience​

Original Word: ὑπακοή

Word Origin: Derived from the Greek verb ὑπακούω (hupakouō), meaning "to listen, to obey."

Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: While there is no direct Hebrew equivalent, the concept of obedience is often expressed by the Hebrew word שָׁמַע (shama, Strong's H8085), meaning "to hear, listen, or obey."

Click to expand...

Hebrews 5:8-9 isn't talking about the kind of unyielding obedience that comes when a master beats their slave, it's talking about the kind of obedience that comes when a farmer listens to the seasons, or a sailor listens to the sea, or a wife listens to her husband... not because one is master over the other, but because there's wisdom to be found in understanding and respecting the nature of the other.

With suffering comes wisdom and compassion, and out of that is born the greatest commandment of all... "to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." From that comes the kind of obedience that's spoken of in Hebrews 5:8-9... the kind that comes from listening... to God, to your neighbor, and even to your enemy. God doesn't want fealty... He wants love. He wants you to listen... that's all, just listen, the rest will come on its own.

With obedience, rather than compelling us to be subservient, God is simply asking us to listen.

MehGuy said:

What is the purpose for all these tears?

Click to expand...

Tears are refreshing. David said that he drank his tears. He was speaking symbolically.