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Thats error, regeneration brings repentance, repentance is the evidence and effect of regeneration by the Spirit. Before regeneration a person is dead to God for all intents and purposes.Thank you for sharing. I am not a Calvanist so this is not a theology I follow. Also your scripture proof is not in context. Paul spends three chapters on a serious concern , refuting Jewish belivers who think they are above the Gentiles in the way of salvation. These chapters are crucial in explaining how God used Israel to bring the Messiah into the world and not just to them but all. He goes on to bring into their understanding that " belief" is necessary and to be Jew is not automatic inclusion. One must repent from unbelief to belief for regeneration.
Blessings.
This is Calvinism. I am not a Calvinist.Thats error, regeneration brings repentance, repentance is the evidence and effect of regeneration by the Spirit. Before regeneration a person is dead to God for all intents and purposes.
You mean you dont believe the Truth and you excuse it as not believing calvinism.This is Calvinism. I am not a Calvinist.
Acts 2:38, “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
Thanks for sharing.
Blessings.
Nope, I mean what I say, I am not a 5 point Calvinist.You mean you dont believe the Truth and you excuse it as not believing calvinism.
Like I said, you blow off Gods Truth by calling it calvinismNope, I mean what I say, I am not a 5 point Calvinist.
I am bowing out of this post.
Be blessed.
Thank you for sharing. I am not a Calvanist so this is not a theology I follow.
Also your scripture proof is not in context.
Paul spends three chapters on a serious concern , refuting Jewish belivers who think they are above the Gentiles in the way of salvation.
That is quite a statement of arrogance. We are 2000 years past the beginning of the NT and you think that the Holy Spirit did not give all Truth to the Apostles. That all Christians for 2000 years never had the correct understanding of what we call soteriology. History is full of individuals who thought they knew more than the Holy Spirit and they all became heretics.I have my suspicions that people here from most different traditions will not approve of the Soteriology that I think I have discovered by reading the Bible myself because it doesn't fit perfectly with any other tradition (though it overlaps with several of them). I will give it here and see what people say.
Did Christ die for everyone, or did he only die for the elect? Indeed, God died for the elect. But it says plainly that Christ died for the whole world as well. So, there is a “Partial-Atonement” for those not chosen before the foundations of the world and a “Full-Atonement” for those chosen before the foundations of the world. I want to be careful here and define these things. By “Partial-Atonement,” I mean it’s possible they can be saved. Still, it is not guaranteed, whereas by “Full-Atonement,” God ensures it will keep this person. I would back up this idea of “Partial-Atonement” with Christ’s words where He says,
Luke 13:34 ESV
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!”
Whereas with Peter, we see Christ saying,
Luke 22:32 ESV
“I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.””
For some of these same people who initially were not willing to see Jesus as the Messiah, later, some of these people see Jesus as the Messiah as seen here:
Acts 6:7 ESV
“And the word of God continued to increase, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith.”
So, some religious Jews who received testimony from other Christians who preached to them ended up coming to faith in Jesus. This means that these religious Jews came to faith by messengers of the Gospel. We know this by “priests becoming obedient to the faith.”
In Acts 9, we see the story of Apostle Paul’s conversion. Paul, much in the same way as Job as well as others, was, in some sense, assaulted by the glory of God. Did Paul really have a choice in his response to Christ? Nothing in the text shows that Paul consciously chose to serve Jesus.
My point in this “Full-Atonement” is found here for Paul, where it says,
Galatians 1:15–16 ESV
“But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;”
So the question becomes, “Did God set all the elect apart before they were born?”
We see throughout Ephesians 1:3-12 that Paul speaks of those predestined as “us,” and “we.” So, who might this “us” and “we” be? Paul tells us here,
Ephesians 2:19–21 ESV
“So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.”
What this tells us is that:
But the next verse is very telling, as it says,
- The “you” are “fellow citizens with the saint,” which is “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets.” The apostles and prophets are the “us” here. And,
- The “structure” is “joined together” by every believer, to which Christ is the cornerstone.
Ephesians 2:22 ESV
“In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.”
So clearly, Paul references a kind of dichotomy to those who, as Paul says, are “Predestined” and others, as it says, “In Him, you also are being built together.”
So where does the “Partial-Atonement” come from? Well, that is easy to see with verses like this one seen here:
1 John 2:2 ESV
“He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.”
So, notice the word “world” here that Apostle John uses. I am not aware of any single reference that the Apostle John uses the word “world” as meaning all the elect and not talking about the “whole world” or the dominion of Satan as the “world.” Instead, Calvinists insert this meaning into the text. It isn’t found in any of the ways John uses the word world.
He concludes about the world here:
1 John 5:19 ESV
“We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.”
So how can it be that Christ is the “Savior of the world” unless Christ died for the world as to the dominion of Satan? For what else could John mean except that from 1 John 2:2 that Christ is the “propitiation for our sins” if not that Christ has a certain “Full-Atonement” for one group of people and a “Partial-Atonement” for “the sins of the whole world”?
Jesse Dornfeld said:
So how can it be that Christ is the “Savior of the world” unless Christ died for the world as to the dominion of Satan? For what else could John mean except that from 1 John 2:2 that Christ is the “propitiation for our sins” if not that Christ has a certain “Full-Atonement” for one group of people and a “Partial-Atonement” for “the sins of the whole world”?
That is an easy answer:
John can say that Christ is the "propitiation for OUR sins" because the word OUR represents the elect only.
Christ is the Savior of "His sheep"... but not "tares or goats" in the church
and certainly not for the lost souls OUTSIDE the church.
This is not hard to understand.
It's Christian Theology 101
The "whole world" represents BOTH Jew and Gentile... nothing more.
The Bible never teaches God saves EVERYONE in the world.
Consider the CONTEXT:
BEFORE Jesus Came God was saving ONLY saving Jews.
AFTER Jesus Came God was saving BOTH Jews and Gentiles.
Jew + Gentile = the whole world.
The Bible never teaches a Universal Atonement
Jim
I thought you said you learned by reading the bible.
Did it explain Pelagianism somewhere?
Why don't you just admit you're calvinist in your belief system?
This is so tiring.
Grace does not fit into anything calvinist.
That is quite a statement of arrogance. We are 2000 years past the beginning of the NT and you think that the Holy Spirit did not give all Truth to the Apostles. That all Christians for 2000 years never had the correct understanding of what we call soteriology. History is full of individuals who thought they knew more than the Holy Spirit and they all became heretics.
It is not a matter of being popular. It is a matter of being correct. In stead of trying to create one by looking at parts and pieces of incorrect ones to actually find the one that has been followed consistently by historic Christianity.Just because my Soteriology is not popular does not mean no one else saw things the same way as me. In fact, I know some people have seen things the same way as me, or in a similar way. Besides, my Soteriology is more or less a combination of many different Soteriologies within Christendom.
It is not a matter of being popular. It is a matter of being correct. In stead of trying to create one by looking at parts and pieces of incorrect ones to actually find the one that has been followed consistently by historic Christianity.
Do you think there is nothing to say for Orthodoxy? If you think it is of no value, then you may as well give up on the confessions, the canon of Scripture, and many other things, and consider all notions in some sort of free-for-all.That's literally the same thing as it being popular. If you don't think your tradition has made any mistakes, then maybe you should consider that some in your own tradition would likely consider you outside of the "True Church."
Do you think there is nothing to say for Orthodoxy? If you think it is of no value, then you may as well give up on the confessions, the canon of Scripture, and many other things, and consider all notions in some sort of free-for-all.
haha! Agreed, but there are plenty of unorthodox Soteriologies running about! Also, within Soteriology in general, there are orthodox facts.Of course I am not giving up on orthodoxy. I am not "Orthodox" meaning, the tradition, but I consider myself an orthodox Christian. Having a slightly different soteriology does not mean I am all of a sudden no longer orthodox. In fact, there isn't really an orthodox position on soteriology since so many different traditions disagree on this issue.
Jesse Dornfeld said:
So how can it be that Christ is the “Savior of the world” unless Christ died for the world as to the dominion of Satan? For what else could John mean except that from 1 John 2:2 that Christ is the “propitiation for our sins” if not that Christ has a certain “Full-Atonement” for one group of people and a “Partial-Atonement” for “the sins of the whole world”?
That is an easy answer:
John can say that Christ is the "propitiation for OUR sins" because the word OUR represents the elect only.
Christ is the Savior of "His sheep"... but not "tares or goats" in the church
and certainly not for the lost souls OUTSIDE the church.
This is not hard to understand.
It's Christian Theology 101
The "whole world" represents BOTH Jew and Gentile... nothing more.
The Bible never teaches God saves EVERYONE in the world.
Consider the CONTEXT:
BEFORE Jesus Came God was saving ONLY saving Jews.
AFTER Jesus Came God was saving BOTH Jews and Gentiles.
Jew + Gentile = the whole world.
The Bible never teaches a Universal Atonement
Jim
Your response above is not germane to the response of 5th Kingdom. In the previous posts leading up to this point it was about who Christ saved and how. There is a lot of confusion throughout the thread. I had a difficult time trying to keep things straight. One will talk about our physical salvation but apply it to a spiritual relationship. Christ came primarily to save the world from the curse of sin which was death, This goes to Gen 3:9. Without overcoming death their is no reason for God to have a relationship with man. This concept is summed up in I Cor 15:16-18, Which is why sthe summary of that aspect of our salvation stated very clearly in I Cor 15:20-22.I have found the solution to this problem. Let me explain.
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us— that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ." (1 John 1:1–3)
It's all there. The apostles and prophets have some manner of direct revelation from God. Then these people give it to others so they can also be saved. Has nothing to do with Jew and Gentile. For one, there were Jews in the church of Ephesus (where John is writing from and the people it is addressed to) who were among the largely Gentile church. Secondly, there is NOTHING in the ECF that says that an apostle had to be Jewish for any reason. In fact, Titus is likely an apostle and he was a Gentile. So when it says "What WE have seen with OUR eyes" it is speaking of apostles (specifically the 12) and prophets.
Your response above is not germane to the response of 5th Kingdom. In the previous posts leading up to this point it was about who Christ saved and how. There is a lot of confusion throughout the thread. I had a difficult time trying to keep things straight. One will talk about our physical salvation but apply it to a spiritual relationship. Christ came primarily to save the world from the curse of sin which was death, This goes to Gen 3:9. Without overcoming death their is no reason for God to have a relationship with man. This concept is summed up in I Cor 15:16-18, Which is why sthe summary of that aspect of our salvation stated very clearly in I Cor 15:20-22.
Christ came to give life to the world, redeem the world, reconcile the man, the world back to God. Here are texts that all adddress this aspect of our physical salvation and atonement. It is universal, without it we as individual human beings could not have a spiritual relationship with God. We would be dissolved by death with no eternal existence.
Col 1:15-20; John 5:28-29; Rom 5:12, Rom 5:14-19; Rom 11:32; I Cor 15:12-22; II Tim 1:10, Heb 2:9 Heb 2:14-17, Col 1:20, I John 2:2, John 1:29, John 6:39. Texts that corroborate this view are: Acts 24:15; Acts 23:6; I Cor 15:52, Eph 1:10; John 5:28, John 12: 32, I Tim 4:10, Is 26:19, Dan 12:2, Luke 2:30-32, Rev 20:12-13. They also show the universality of Christ's redemptive work. John 4:42, I John 4:14.
Christ's work on the Cross is solely Grace, man has nothing to do with it, it is totally objective. See: John 1:13, I Pet 1:23, James 1:18, Gal 4:4, Heb 2:11, Rom 9:16.
In going back in checking what you stated with 5Kingdom, it is actually 5Kingdom that I should have responded to who does not hold to the universality of Christ's redemptive work.I'm not sure what you disagree with me on. Please clear that up.
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