Lost Witness
Ezekiel 3:3 ("Change")
- Nov 10, 2022
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GODS Absolutely Sovereign,How would you interpret this verse?
Isaiah 46:10 CSB17
“I declare the end from the beginning,
and from long ago what is not yet done,
saying: my plan will take place,
and I will do all my will.”
How would you interpret this verse?
Isaiah 46:10 CSB17
“I declare the end from the beginning,
and from long ago what is not yet done,
saying: my plan will take place,
and I will do all my will.”
New birth or aka regeneration is Spiritual. This is when Jesus Christ of Nazareth makes His Home in us through His Holy Spirit. The flesh is natural and comes to an end. The Spirit is everlasting.
Of course God decides how one is saved this is through the giving of His Son, Jesus Christ of Nazareth . But who will get saved is up to mans free will and the choice given to him to believe.But who is the ultimate decider of how you get saved? Is it your own self-determining will, or God?
Of course God decides how one is saved this is through the giving of His Son, Jesus Christ of Nazareth . But who will get saved is up to mans free will and the choice given to him to believe.
Our conversation is getting very Calvinistic, not my interest to debate Calvinism. I'll leave you with this, go beyond Calvinism and beyond Augustine seek out Manichaeism vs Archelaus.
Be blessed.
Did Christ die for everyone, or did he only die for the elect? Indeed, God died for the elect. But it says plainly that Christ died for the whole world as well. So, there is a “Partial-Atonement” for those not chosen before the foundations of the world and a “Full-Atonement” for those chosen before the foundations of the world. I want to be careful here and define these things. By “Partial-Atonement,” I mean it’s possible they can be saved. Still, it is not guaranteed, whereas by “Full-Atonement,” God ensures it will keep this person. I would back up this idea of “Partial-Atonement” with Christ’s words where He says,
Possible ? Then that means they must fullfill some sorta condition apart from Christs atoning death, so thats works salvation !
Remember you said their salvation is only made possible. If thats the case, they must do something to make it a reality, correct ?It's more based on Ephesians 2:10 then works-based salvation. God chose them for a specific purpose, not that they earn their way to heaven.
Remember you said their salvation is only made possible. If thats the case, they must do something to make it a reality, correct ?
I want to be careful here and define these things. By “Partial-Atonement,” I mean it’s possible they can be saved. Still, it is not guaranteed,
You said their salvation is possible ! So evidently you are saying their Salvation is contingent on more than just the atonement of Christ. So what are the conditions that makes their salvation certain rather than merely possible ?
Please answer the question, what makes their Salvation certain instead of possible ? What must be done ?For the people who fall into the category of "Partial-Atonement," I don't mean that the Atonement is literally "Partial." I mean these are people who are justified by the preaching of the Word or reading the Bible for themselves. I put people who have a "Full-Atonement" as people who have a more direct revelation from God that confirms their faith. There are examples of this all throughout the Bible - from Abraham to Isaiah to Daniel to Apostle Paul. for people who have a "Partial-Atonememt," they can lose their salvation even though the initial process of justification is by Irresistible Grace.
Please answer the question, what makes their Salvation certain instead of possible ? What must be done ?
Elaborate?then works-based salvation.
Elaborate?
Prayer is a 'Work'Not sure what you have a question about.
Ephesians 2:8–10 ESV
“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”
Pretty self-explanatory? God created us for good works. We also know without faith, it is impossible to please God. So the faith that God gives us is so we can do good works. We are not saved because of our works but saved for the purpose of good works.
I have my suspicions that people here from most different traditions will not approve of the Soteriology that I think I have discovered by reading the Bible myself because it doesn't fit perfectly with any other tradition (though it overlaps with several of them). I will give it here and see what people say.
Did Christ die for everyone, or did he only die for the elect? Indeed, God died for the elect. But it says plainly that Christ died for the whole world as well. So, there is a “Partial-Atonement” for those not chosen before the foundations of the world and a “Full-Atonement” for those chosen before the foundations of the world. I want to be careful here and define these things. By “Partial-Atonement,” I mean it’s possible they can be saved. Still, it is not guaranteed, whereas by “Full-Atonement,” God ensures it will keep this person. I would back up this idea of “Partial-Atonement” with Christ’s words where He says,
Luke 13:34 ESV
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!”
Whereas with Peter, we see Christ saying,
Luke 22:32 ESV
“I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.””
For some of these same people who initially were not willing to see Jesus as the Messiah, later, some of these people see Jesus as the Messiah as seen here:
Acts 6:7 ESV
“And the word of God continued to increase, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith.”
So, some religious Jews who received testimony from other Christians who preached to them ended up coming to faith in Jesus. This means that these religious Jews came to faith by messengers of the Gospel. We know this by “priests becoming obedient to the faith.”
In Acts 9, we see the story of Apostle Paul’s conversion. Paul, much in the same way as Job as well as others, was, in some sense, assaulted by the glory of God. Did Paul really have a choice in his response to Christ? Nothing in the text shows that Paul consciously chose to serve Jesus.
My point in this “Full-Atonement” is found here for Paul, where it says,
Galatians 1:15–16 ESV
“But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;”
So the question becomes, “Did God set all the elect apart before they were born?”
We see throughout Ephesians 1:3-12 that Paul speaks of those predestined as “us,” and “we.” So, who might this “us” and “we” be? Paul tells us here,
Ephesians 2:19–21 ESV
“So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.”
What this tells us is that:
But the next verse is very telling, as it says,
- The “you” are “fellow citizens with the saint,” which is “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets.” The apostles and prophets are the “us” here. And,
- The “structure” is “joined together” by every believer, to which Christ is the cornerstone.
Ephesians 2:22 ESV
“In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.”
So clearly, Paul references a kind of dichotomy to those who, as Paul says, are “Predestined” and others, as it says, “In Him, you also are being built together.”
So where does the “Partial-Atonement” come from? Well, that is easy to see with verses like this one seen here:
1 John 2:2 ESV
“He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.”
So, notice the word “world” here that Apostle John uses. I am not aware of any single reference that the Apostle John uses the word “world” as meaning all the elect and not talking about the “whole world” or the dominion of Satan as the “world.” Instead, Calvinists insert this meaning into the text. It isn’t found in any of the ways John uses the word world.
He concludes about the world here:
1 John 5:19 ESV
“We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.”
So how can it be that Christ is the “Savior of the world” unless Christ died for the world as to the dominion of Satan? For what else could John mean except that from 1 John 2:2 that Christ is the “propitiation for our sins” if not that Christ has a certain “Full-Atonement” for one group of people and a “Partial-Atonement” for “the sins of the whole world”?
What is the job of the elect? If you do not know that, then you are not the elect. And why would elect be needed right at this time these are the questions I ask. Also, I know!Can't say I agree with your view, but I do believe the "whole world" refers to the sin of the world, and when people make a choice to turn to God, repent and believe in Jesus and the work of the cross, they're free from slavery to sin and death. "Saved by grace through faith". (Faith being the determining factor).
Prayer is a 'Work'
I fell away from the LORD, quit praying everything.
He called me back to repent. (hallelujah)
I can tell you first hand unless it's a situation where you ask the LORD into your heart and for some reason end up passing away shortly thereafter (such as when the thief asked the LORD to remember him when he came into his kingdom) you need to preform works or you will fall away from the faith.
i experienced it myself after walking away without praying, repenting or even acknowledging the lord for over 6yrs.
What is the job of the elect? If you do not know that, then you are not the elect. And why would elect be needed right at this time these are the questions I ask. Also, I know!
I’m just curious if anybody here knows
Thats works salvation then.Nothing must be done. All people get saved the same way through repentance and piety.
Thats works salvation then.
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