My Jesus Challenge

joshua 1 9 said:

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" Romans 1:20

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Thanks for the quote. In it I see God as one's reality everywhere one looks, even in the depths of this Creation. It's seeing God as the ONLY reality.

joshua 1 9 said:

The ministry gifts are five fold: "11 And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for works of ministry, to build up the body of Christ" Ephesians 4

Some people believe a five fold preacher has all five of the ministry gifts.

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NM, was just checking something.

AV1611VET said:

Either that, or I was being sarcastic to make a point.

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I prefer that latter. You seem more God aware from that place.

joshua 1 9 said:

Nice try, but another swing and a miss. We are not talking about "Biblical claims" we are talking about the Bible. People make all sorts of claims. The question is what does the Bible say.

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It's the Bible is a collection of books that makes claims about theology and history. I do not accept it as a truthful account of history. As a result I'm not all that interested in what it has to say, other than for argumentation.

joshua 1 9 said:

This does present a problem because we do not want to allow modern Science to influence our interpretation of the Bible.

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Who is we? There are many Christians who reject that the events of Genesis literally happened in light of modern science, for example. There are many who think Revelation is metaphorical or that most of all Biblical books are metaphorical.

joshua 1 9 said:

So we go back to books that were written before Modern Science. Bishop Usshers book is a good example of this. People say he was YEC and he was. Yet no where does modern Science contradict Bishop Usshers book written around 500 years ago. Gerald Schroeder is OEC and he uses Nachmanides teachings from around 800 years ago. So no one can claim that he was influenced by modern Science. There are rules we use for proper Bible interpretation.

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Ussher said the world was approximately 6,000 years old. We now understand Earth itself to be about 4 billion years old and the universe about 13 billion years old. That's a pretty clear contradiction.

AV1611VET said:

So?

There are many Christians who reject the sacred texts of Wicca and Neo-paganism in light of modern science.

Does that also mean anything to you?

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I didn't know we had sacred texts

AV1611VET said:

So?

There are many Christians who reject the sacred texts of Wicca and Neo-paganism in light of modern science.

Does that also mean anything to you?

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I'm sitting here unaware of Wiccan Creation stories. Do you have anything?

AV1611VET said:

Any pagans here believe in a literal Genesis 1 creation?

(Or know any who do?)

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Any more even in Christian circles there are progressively less people who believe in the Genesis Creation story.

AV1611VET said:

Or ... as I suspect ... do pagans steer clear of a literal Genesis 1 like the plague?

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I'm not at all clear why anyone other than Fundamentalist Christians would take the Genesis Creation Story as literal. And even than I know some Christians of that strip who don't take it literally.

AV1611VET said:

"It's going to be tricky to find any concrete information about what Pagans think about the beginning of the world, and that's because Paganism is an umbrella term that defines a lot of different belief systems. And because “Paganism” means lots of different belief systems, you’re going to encounter lots of different mythologies about creation, the beginning of the universe, and the origins of mankind as a species.

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I think the vast majority of modern day Pagans are aware of various creation myths, but they are not taken literally. I'm quite fine with the Big Bang Theory, myself.

I'm asking if ... under that umbrella ... are there any literal Genesis 1 pagans that anyone knows of?

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Some people identify as Christo-pagans, but I can't imagine they would take it literally. Can't say it's impossible.

AV1611VET said:

So?

There are many Christians who reject the sacred texts of Wicca and Neo-paganism in light of modern science.

Does that also mean anything to you?

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I'm not even aware that such texts exist, at least they do not in my specific practice. But if they did I'd say it's fine, part of my ideals hold difference to science so I would avoid non naturalistic explanations for happenings in the universe.

Most pagans understand and use the power of myth but stories of gods are nothing more than myths to me, which is fine. Science is the best system for naturally explaining our universe.

Zoness said:

I do not accept it as a truthful account of history.

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The Bible has been proven again and again to be an extremely accurate account of History. There is abundant overwhelming evidence from Archaeology showing how accurate and true the Bible is. I personally have been studying ancient History for over 50 years now. In High School we used the book "Ancient Times A History of the Early World" written by Breasted in 1916. After 100 years this is an amazing History book and goes a long way to show how accurate and true the Bible is. Just like James Ussher dedicated his whole life to write his book published back in the 1650's. Again his books snows us how accurate and true the Bible is when you look at history. Even today Science shows us how accurate the books Breasted and Ussher wrote. In a court of law I could stack up book after book after book that are highly regarded and highly respected that substantiates how true and accurate the Bible is and you would have nothing. You would show up empty handed and have nothing to establish your claims. There will be a day and there will be a time when people are called to give an account of their life and there are going to be people that will show up with nothing on that day to defend themselves. Daniel talks about this in his book written over 2500 years ago and John talks about this around 2,000 years ago in the last book of the Bible the book of Revelation chapter 20. The books will be opened that day and people will be judged according to what is written in the books. Generation after generation will stand witness to how accurate and true the Bible is and how the work of their entire life substantiates that.

"The Final Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And there were open books, and one of them was the book of life. And the dead were judged

Daniel 7:10
A river of fire was flowing, coming out from His presence. Thousands upon thousands attended Him, and myriads upon myriads stood before Him. The court was convened, and the books were opened.

God writes the book of our life before we are even born. The angels can read our book to help us to do the work God has for us to do. We will be judged to see if what we did with our life lines up with the Book God wrote.

Psalm 139 "15 My frame was not hidden from You when I was made in secret, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all my days were written in Your book and ordained for me before one of them came to be. 17 How precious to me are Your thoughts, O God, how vast is their sum!…" (NIV)

dlamberth said:

I'm not at all clear why anyone other than Fundamentalist Christians would take the Genesis Creation Story as literal.

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Every Science book and every History book shows us how accurate and true Genesis in the Bible is. I began my study of Science and Ancient History before 1968. For over 50 years now I have been watching Science and History come up with abundant and overwhelming evidence to substantiate how accurate and true the Bible is. In a court of law we could show book after book after book to establish how ture the Bible is and there is nothing to testify Against the Bible to show that God's word is not true. For very good reason, because the Bible has been tested 7 times over. God's watches over His word to be sure that His word accomplishes what HE sends His word to do. The Bible is "flawless".

Psalm 12:6 "And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver purified in a crucible, like gold refined seven times."

Psalm 18:30 "As for God, his way is perfect: The LORD's word is flawless; he shields all who take refuge in him."

Isaiah 55:11 "So shall My word be that goeth forth out of My mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

My understanding is this: So shall My Word that goes forth out of My Mouth shall not return unto Me void, but My Word shall accomplish what I please, and My Word shall prosper in what I send My Word to accomplish.