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If you think those pilots were martyred for their faith, I submit you don't know what a martyr is.
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If you think those pilots were martyred for their faith, I submit you don't know what a martyr is.Lots of people die for beliefs that both you and I consider false, all the time.
Or do you think the Saudis who flew passenger planes into the WTC towers are now enjoying the attention of houris in heaven?
If you think those pilots were martyred for their faith, I submit you don't know what a martyr is.
Lots of people die for beliefs that both you and I consider false, all the time.
Or do you think the Saudis who flew passenger planes into the WTC towers are now enjoying the attention of houris in heaven?
Do you think Joseph Smith went to his death for the Truth?
What about the followers of Mani, who kept loudly proclaiming that their founder was alive (Mani chai = Mani lives) even after the Persian king displayed his corpse and brought death to anyone who openly declared allegiance to the faith?
Even ideologies pretty much everyone considers (rightfully) despicable can produce uncompromising loyalty unto death: thousands upon thousands of young Germans died for the sake of the National Socialist world view, and even those who perpetuated it embraced it so wholeheartedly that they'd rather die (and kill their loved ones) than forsake it. When Goebbels and his wife realized that the war was lost, they wrote a letter declaring that they would not wish to live (or have their children live) in a world devoid of the ideals they held sacred, then proceeded to kill both their six children and themselves.
Her letter to her adult son (then in Canada) read as follows:
"[...]Unsere herrliche Idee geht zu Grunde, und mit ihr alles was ich Schönes, Bewundernswertes, Edles und Gutes in meinem Leben gekannt habe. Die Welt, die nach dem Führer und dem Nationalsozialismus kommt ist nicht mehr wert darin zu leben und deshalb habe ich auch die Kinder hierher mitgenommen. Sie sind zu schade für das nach uns kommende Leben und ein Gnädiger Gott wird mich verstehen, wenn ich selbst ihnen die Erlösung geben werde. [...] Wir haben nur noch ein Ziel: Treue bis in den Tod dem Führer."
(Translation: "Our glorious ideal is perishing, and with it everything that was beautiful, adorable, noble and good in my life. The world to come after the Fuhrer and National Socialism is not worth living in, and therefore I've also brought the children here [into the Bunker, to die]. They are too dear to continue in the coming era and a merciful God will understand, when I bring them salvation by my own hand. We've got but one goal left: devotion to the Fuhrer unto death.")
So you see, people dying for an idea(l) are hardly an argument for its veracity.
Besides, the borrowed elements were not plagiarized or deliberately added to deceive, but slowly made their way from one culture into the other, the way they usually do when people are in close contact with each other. None of the proto-Christians were the ones who borrowed them - that had happened centuries earlier, with Jewish folklore gradually adopting the image of an adversarial spritual entity.
Same question then:Definition of martyr notwithstanding I think the point that people die for beliefs we think are wrong, holds. It's shown to happen constantly.
Did they then die martyrs' deaths, screaming:
WE WERE JUST KIDDING! WE BORROWED IT! WE THOUGHT THE JOKE WAS ON YOU!
See above:Same question then:
Jane, according to Matthew's gospel, Herod was made to look like a laughingstock at times.See above:
1. They were not the ones to borrow it.
2. The borrowing was not a process where individuals decided to deliberately promote falsehood , but a gradual influence and exchange of ideas - like Santeria in recent times.
See above:Same question then:
Jane, according to Matthew's gospel, Herod was made to look like a laughingstock at times.
Matthew died for what he wrote.
Did Matthew just make all that up, then die a martyr's death thinking: THE JOKE'S ON YOU!?
And where did that info that he wrote come from?Matthew probably died believing what he wrote.
Is the Biblical Jesus Christ a man-made invention?
And where did that info that he wrote come from?
That's the difference between what we believe and what others believe.
I can't believe Matthew spends three years walking and talking with THE Messiah, creator of Heaven and Earth, God in the flesh ... then goes and writes a work of fiction.
(And what did you mean by "probably died believing what he wrote"?)
Don't you know what a martyr is either?
If I read Jane's post right, Matthew "borrowed" his facts from Zoroastrianism, then refused to recant.I think you're reading too much into my choice of words; I used it because I don't know what he actually believed in his head and I wasn't present at his death.
If I read Jane's post right, Matthew "borrowed" his facts from Zoroastrianism, then refused to recant.
Meaning Matthew was martyred a Zoroastrian, not a Christian.
Or something like that.
I'm not sure what she said.
If someone has to stoop to bringing Zoroastrianism into the picture, then I'd say they're pretty desperate.
Okay, sorry about that.Oh, I was making my own separate point about why I would be skeptical of the gospels. With regard to Zoroastrianism, I'll leave that to Jane as I do not have the relevant info.
Okay, sorry about that.
My bad.
Wrong.If I read Jane's post right, Matthew "borrowed" his facts from Zoroastrianism, then refused to recant.
Zoroastrian elements begin to filter into Jewish folklore several centuries BCE, as evidenced by apocryphal OT texts such as the book of Enoch and a marked change in Talmudic commentaries.
I did, and my answer to that can be gleaned from the very post you quoted:Hey hey jane
Did you read my reply to you?
What does this have to do with Matthew?Zoroastrian elements begin to filter into Jewish folklore several centuries BCE,
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