My Gospel by Paul

Der Alte said:

And if Jesus' ministry which He passed on to them through His disciples did not include Gentiles He could not have said,

Matthew 28:18-20​

(18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.​

(19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:​

(20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.​

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Firstly, that is after the cross.

Secondly, the order is spelt out in Luke's version of the GC, that Israel must believe first, before gentiles enter thru the rise of Israel (Isaiah 60:1-3, Zechariah 8:23).

That was why Peter was legitimately protesting, at Acts 10, when the Holy Spirit gave him a vision to go to Cornelius house.

He was correct, Israel has just committed the sin of killing Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, in Acts 7. We now understand that as Israel committing the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but the point is, Israel is FAR from rising, (Isaiah 60:1-3), so gentiles are not to be reached yet, given the order found in Luke 24:47 and Matthew 10:5-8.

That was why Peter and the little flock were astonished that the Holy Spirit has been poured to gentiles, indicating their salvation.

If they understood Matthew 28:18-20 as you did, that they are now to minister to both Israel and gentiles simultaneously, they would have have told Cornelius to follow Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 without any hint of surprise.

Paul's gospel is totally different, gentiles enter thru the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11)

bling said:

Jesus talks about the “Great Faith” of this Gentile while shortly afterwards Jesus will talk about the his disciples Matt. 16: 8 Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith…

Jesus taught a great and wonderful lesson to his disciples and this gentile woman about who He is and how some Gentiles have extremely strong faith, which is also shown with the centurion.

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Before Paul, Gentiles who blessed Israel will be blessed by Israel's God, that has always been the case after the nation was formed, as promised to Jacob in Genesis 28:13-15.

And any nation that refused to bless Israel, or made life difficult for her, will also be cursed by God (Numbers 24:9, Deuteronomy 23:3-4), for many generations.

In time past, we cannot approach God independently, without Israel.

Even Jesus followed that rule during his first coming. (Romans 15:8, Matthew 15:24)

The Roman Centurion blessed Abraham's seed, by building Israel a synagogue. (Luke 7:4-5). That was why Jesus automatically agreed to meet with him and to grant him that miracle.

The Canaanite woman blessed Abraham's seed, Israel, by acknowledging her submission to Israel, that she was indeed a gentile puppy who have the right to be blessed from the bread crumbs falling from the children of Israel's table (Mark 7:28-29)

Both cases, Israel was honored, and Jesus could therefore bless them because they blessed Israel.

But praise the Lord now that we don't need to bless the nation of Israel, in order to be saved or blessed (Romans 11:11). That is good news for us. The difference for us now, under Paul's gospel, is that gentiles are blessed thru the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11).

Guojing said:

Firstly, that is after the cross.

Secondly, the order is spelt out in Luke's version of the GC, that Israel must believe first, before gentiles enter thru the rise of Israel (Isaiah 60:1-3, Zechariah 8:23).
That was why Peter was legitimately protesting, at Acts 10, when the Holy Spirit gave him a version to go to Cornelius house.
He was correct, Israel has just committed the sin of killing Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, in Acts 7. We now understand that as Israel committing the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but the point is, Israel is FAR from rising, (Isaiah 60:1-3), so gentiles are not to be reached yet, given the order found in Luke 24:47 and Matthew 10:5-8.
That was why Peter and the little flock were astonished that the Holy Spirit has been poured to gentiles, indicating their salvation.
If they understood Matthew 28:18-20 as you did, that they are now to minister to both Israel and gentiles simultaneously, they would have have told Cornelius to follow Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 without any hint of surprise.
Paul's gospel is totally different, gentiles enter thru the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11)

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I'm afraid that is a little too much jumping around from disparate scriptures for me. Luke to Isa 60, to Zech 8, to Acts 7, to Isa 60, to Luke 24, to Matt 10, to Matt 28, to Mark 16, to Acts 2 to Rom 11.Almost certainly none of the former pagan gentile Christians to whom the gospel was sent would know this.

Der Alte said:

I'm afraid that is a little too much jumping around from disparate scriptures for me. Luke to Isa 60, to Zech 8, to Acts 7, to Isa 60, to Luke 24, to Matt 10, to Matt 28, to Mark 16, to Acts 2 to Rom 11.Almost certainly none of the former pagan gentile Christians to whom the gospel was sent would know this.

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You being a gentile of course will see it as "jumping around" the OT.

But as far as Jews like Peter, they understood the OT prophecy about the promised kingdom well, starting from Daniel 70 weeks. Jesus even spent 40 days explaining everything to them (Acts 1:3)

Guojing said:

But as far as Jews like Peter, they understood the OT prophecy about the promised kingdom well, starting from Daniel 70 weeks. Jesus even spent 40 days explaining everything to them (Acts 1:3)

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You're jumping to the conclusion that Jesus teaching them about the kingdom of God meant Jesus started from "Daniel's 70 weeks".
Why?
Jesus had taught much about the kingdom of God during his ministry; he didn't teach then about "Daniel's 70 weeks".

Strong in Him said:

You're jumping to the conclusion that Jesus teaching them about the kingdom of God meant Jesus started from "Daniel's 70 weeks".
Why?
Jesus had taught much about the kingdom of God during his ministry; he didn't teach then about "Daniel's 70 weeks".

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I did not say Jesus started from that, read my post properly

The promised kingdom of God comes after the 70th week.

You understood why peter talked about Joel prophecy in acts 2 about the great and terrible day of the Lord?

Guojing said:

The promised kingdom of God comes after the 70th week.

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Your opinion, not what Jesus taught.

The Kingdom of God started when Jesus, the King, was on earth. A kingdom = land etc that is under the rule of a king. So the kingdom of God is where God is acknowledged as king. And Jesus showed people what life in his Kingdom would be like - the sick healed, the lame walk, the outcast are welcomed; people seeking God first, loving him with all their heart etc.
True, it is not yet FULLY here, but it is here; it HAS come. Those who have accepted Jesus as Lord, Saviour and king and have been born again, are already in the kingdom.

Strong in Him said:

Your opinion, not what Jesus taught.

The Kingdom of God started when Jesus, the King, was on earth. A kingdom = land etc that is under the rule of a king. So the kingdom of God is where God is acknowledged as king. And Jesus showed people what life in his Kingdom would be like - the sick healed, the lame walk, the outcast are welcomed; people seeking God first, loving him with all their heart etc.
True, it is not yet FULLY here, but it is here; it HAS come. Those who have accepted Jesus as Lord, Saviour and king and have been born again, are already in the kingdom.

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You seem totally ignorant of the Daniel 70th week prophecy?

Daniel 9:24-27

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Do you know why Peter mentioned the Joel prophecy in Acts 2 in the first place, or are you simply ignoring what he was saying there?

Guojing said:

You seem totally ignorant of the Daniel 70th week prophecy?

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No; just challenging that it was a prophecy about the kingdom, to be fulfilled at some point in the future.

In Scripture, when prophecy is being fulfilled, we are told about it. "This was to fulfil what the prophet said ...." etc.
Jesus never taught about Daniel's 70th week, did not say that it would be fulfilled at some point, nor that the kingdom would not arrive until it was. Jesus's first words, when he started his ministry, were "the Kingdom of God has come near", Mark 1:15. When he healed the sick he told them, "the kingdom of God has come near", Luke 10:9. When he drove out demons he said, "the kingdom of God has come near", Luke 11:20.

The kingdom is here, but not fully because Jesus has not returned to reign as king. The kingdom is now - but not yet.
I hope you don't spend so much time looking for a future kingdom that you miss what is happening and what God is doing now.

Guojing said:

Do you know why Peter mentioned the Joel prophecy in Acts 2 in the first place, or are you simply ignoring what he was saying there?

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Yes. He was saying that Pentecost - the outpouring of the Spirit - was the fulfilment of the prophecy by Joel. As I said, when Scripture was fulfilled, we are told about it.

What's that got to do with Daniel?

Guojing said:

You being a gentile of course will see it as "jumping around" the OT.
But as far as Jews like Peter, they understood the OT prophecy about the promised kingdom well, starting from Daniel 70 weeks. Jesus even spent 40 days explaining everything to them (Acts 1:3)

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If the writer/speaker does not quote/refer to a specific OT passage then and only then would it not be proper to assign a specific passage.

Guojing said:

Before Paul, Gentiles who blessed Israel will be blessed by Israel's God, that has always been the case after the nation was formed, as promised to Jacob in Genesis 28:13-15.

And any nation that refused to bless Israel, or made life difficult for her, will also be cursed by God (Numbers 24:9, Deuteronomy 23:3-4), for many generations.

In time past, we cannot approach God independently, without Israel.

Even Jesus followed that rule during his first coming. (Romans 15:8, Matthew 15:24)

The Roman Centurion blessed Abraham's seed, by building Israel a synagogue. (Luke 7:4-5). That was why Jesus automatically agreed to meet with him and to grant him that miracle.

The Canaanite woman blessed Abraham's seed, Israel, by acknowledging her submission to Israel, that she was indeed a gentile puppy who have the right to be blessed from the bread crumbs falling from the children of Israel's table (Mark 7:28-29)

Both cases, Israel was honored, and Jesus could therefore bless them because they blessed Israel.

But praise the Lord now that we don't need to bless the nation of Israel, in order to be saved or blessed (Romans 11:11). That is good news for us. The difference for us now, under Paul's gospel, is that gentiles are blessed thru the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11).

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We agree that Samaritans were not Jews and Christ specifically said to the 12, prior to the cross, to not go to the Samaritans and the Gentile, which you use as proof that the 12 were not to go with the Gospel Jesus taught and gave to the 12 (not Paul), so what Gospel did Christ, Peter, John and Phillip preach to the Samaritans?

And

What gospel message did Paul preach in every synagogue prior to going to the Gentile and in every city, he went to that had a synagogue? It is never mentioned that Paul established two denominations in any of these cities, but only talks about one group of Christians (Jews and Gentiles together).

There is no exclusive “Jewish Work’s Gospel”, works do not save anyone, but the same believe/faith Gospel, which can include doing stuff which is not “work”. Worship is never a work.

Strong in Him said:

Yes. He was saying that Pentecost - the outpouring of the Spirit - was the fulfilment of the prophecy by Joel. As I said, when Scripture was fulfilled, we are told about it.

What's that got to do with Daniel?

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Do you know what Peter meant by Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

Jews understand the day of the Lord in a very specific manner. Do you know what that is?

bling said:

what Gospel did Christ, Peter, John and Phillip preach to the Samaritans? What gospel message did Paul preach in every synagogue prior to going to the Gentile and in every city, he went to that had a synagogue?

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Both of them preached the gospel of the circumcision, which differs from the gospel of the uncircumcision (Galatians 2:7-9)

Guojing said:

Do you know what Peter meant by Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

Jews understand the day of the Lord in a very specific manner. Do you know what that is?

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I know how the JEWS understood it.
I am not a Jew. I follow the One who said "no one knows the day nor hour, not even the Son". The One who talked, and taught, a lot about the kingdom of God but never about "Daniel's 70 week prophecy."
You have not been able to answer that point, nor addressed my statements about the kingdom of God - which is here, now and is not just some future event.

Edit - for some reason, the end of my post got chopped off.

Strong in Him said:

I know how the JEWS understood it.
I am not a Jew. I follow the One who said "no one knows the day nor hour, not even the Son". The One who

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If you know, then you will understand why it was connected to Daniel's 70th week.

Acts 2 and Acts 3, together with 1 Peter 1, are all about Peter warning the nation of Israel that the 70th week is going to come very soon.

1 Peter 1
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Guojing said:

If you know, then you will understand why it was connected to Daniel's 70th week.

Acts 2 and Acts 3, together with 1 Peter 1, are all about Peter warning the nation of Israel that the 70th week is going to come very soon.

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"Very soon" - 2000 years ago?
The Apostles all believed that Jesus would return in their lifetime - which, I think, I've said before.
The fact that he didn't shows that Jesus meant it when he said "no one knows the day nor hour." That hasn't stopped countless people since from saying "I know it" - and they've all been wrong.

Strong in Him said:

"Very soon" - 2000 years ago?
The Apostles all believed that Jesus would return in their lifetime - which, I think, I've said before.
The fact that he didn't shows that Jesus meant it when he said "no one knows the day nor hour." That hasn't stopped countless people since from saying "I know it" - and they've all been wrong.

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There has been an interruption, as explained by Paul in Romans 11.

We know that now of course, but Peter only realized that at the end of his life, when he wrote 2 Peter.

Guojing said:

Both of them preached the gospel of the circumcision, which differs from the gospel of the uncircumcision (Galatians 2:7-9)

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Gal 2:1. Then after fourteen years, I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. 2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. 4 This matter arose because some false believers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.



6 As for those who were held in high esteem—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism—they added nothing to my message. 7 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised. 8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. 10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along.

Notice: Paul goes to the Christian leadership in Jerusalem after a long period of preaching to both Jews and Gentiles in cities outside Judea “to present the gospel he preached among the Gentiles” to make sure he was not running his race in vain. Paul does not say: Christian members preaching the “Circumcision Gospel”, but “false believers” (non-Christians). It is “the gospel” and not the gospel to the Gentiles.

Paul says: “God does not show favoritism”, but if the Jews were having to do some “works” and the gentiles did not have to do these same works there would be favoritism.

The distinction is made between the two different groups of people and not two different “Gospels”.

You are telling me: When Paul entered a city and went to the Synagogue first he preached a different (circumcision) gospel to them even though there were gentile present listening in and large groups of Gentiles would go to hear Paul preach at the synagogue, so did the come to hear the circumcision gospel?

Are you saying the cities where there were both Jewish and gentile Christians had two different gospels being taught and was that like two different denominations?

The main message of the book of Romans is the uniting of the Jewish and Gentile Christians and Paul does not ever mention them having two different “gospels”, but emphasis on them being treated equally.

bling said:

Are you saying the cities where there were both Jewish and gentile Christians had two different gospels being taught and was that like two different denominations?

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Yes, a good example can be found in Galatians 5

5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

This is only taught to gentiles.

But when you read on in the next chapter Galatians 6

15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The Israel of God refers to the circumcision, and they do not follow the rule he spelt out to the gentiles in Galatians 5:2.

That is why I know that Paul was innocent of the charge that James and the elders made of him when they met after he wrote Galatians, in Acts 21:18-25.

Paul was within his right, based on the Jerusalem Council event to preach to gentiles that they should not be circumcised, and if they do that in order to be justified, Christ would become of no effect.

Jews who happen to be around that preaching also took that preaching, even though Paul was not directing that teaching to them, and began to think of themselves to be justified apart from the Law too.

Word of that got to Jerusalem HQ, making the elders and James unhappy about that development. That was why we got Acts 21:20-21

And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

So to the elders and James, they thought Paul broke that agreement with them in Acts 15, by preaching to the Jews the gospel of the uncircumcision.