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My Final Conclusion about Science and Religion

Kripost

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The problem with your criteria for Christian is that it would imply Stephen arom acts cannot be a christian, since he would not have the New Testament to read.

Another error is in saying that Unfortunately, the "slaughter" mysteriously stops when the NT was widely published. Firstly, it was already well read in the byzantine empire, at least among the literate. If you are referring to the impact of Gutenberg's work, do remember there are persecutions and counter -persecutions in Catholic and various protestant faction, the thirty years war. The only ones who were not involved were the Eastern Orthodox.
 
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GodsSamus

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If macroevolution occurs, how come we NEVER see an ape produce a non-ape? So what makes you think it happened a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away?

Btw, how did you get your information? Did you just go to a public school to learn both sides? If so, you haven't been educated: you've been brainwashed.
 
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mikeynov

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But we've observed macroevolution. Denying that is tantamount to lying.

And common descent predicts that daughter branches will always be subsets of their parent branch - so an ape will always beget modified subsets of apes.

Brainwashing is definitely a relevent factor. But you've failed to identify who's really doing it.
 
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Hungry Hungry Hippo

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I use to believe in the historical Jesus and think he was a marvelous teacher. I've read a few books, including Doherty's "The Jesus Puzzle", which have lead me to disbelieve in the biblical Jesus. From what I've studied, much of the new testament was reverse-engineered by writers who scoured the OT for prophetic texts.

Anyways, welcome to the dark size, Aeroz. People will have all sorts of misconceptions about your beliefs, just like when you were a Christian.

Your anti-testimony is somewhat similar to mine. I came from a more liberal church though.
 
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aeroz19

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GodsSamus said:
If macroevolution occurs, how come we NEVER see an ape produce a non-ape?

Oh, my gosh. It's a hovindite.

Btw, how did you get your information?

From the devil.

Did you just go to a public school to learn both sides?

Devil's High School, Satanic School of Lies and Deception, Massachusetts

If so, you haven't been educated: you've been brainwashed.

Nevah!
 
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Hungry Hungry Hippo

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GodsSamus said:
If macroevolution occurs, how come we NEVER see an ape produce a non-ape? So what makes you think it happened a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away?

Hopefully you're shrooming.
 
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aeroz19

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GodsSamus said:
Btw, how did you get your information? Did you just go to a public school to learn both sides?

This proves that you didn't read my posts at all; they clearly indicate where I got my info.

By the way, I was homeschooled until the 10th grade; after that I went to College. In College I received zero education on evolution because I took math, engineering, etc., (btw, just got an A.S. degree in Engineering too) no biology or any life sciences. In homeschool, I was told hovind-level lies in science.

Which gives me an idea. I will dig up all those old texts from 9th and 10th grade that I used in highschool, and I'll show you guys exactly what I was taught. We aught to have some fun with that one. We'll go through each point and refute them all.
 
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aeroz19

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I'd like to discuss this with you sometime.

Anyways, welcome to the dark size, Aeroz.People will have all sorts of misconceptions about your beliefs, just like when you were a Christian.

Yeah, it has begun already.

Your anti-testimony is somewhat similar to mine. I came from a more liberal church though.

In some ways you were lucky, and in some ways not, then. I immensely enjoy knowing exactly what, why, and when YECists and fundies are thinking and planning. I know their thought processes; I can almost read their minds.

I feel like an x-borg or something...
 
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Hungry Hungry Hippo

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Realizing that God is absent/currently irrelevant, for me, was liberating, eye opening, and scary. Do you experience these emotions as well?

You really do see everything through a different eye when you no longer believe in God though. For example, you never have to wonder "Why is God doing this to me?!"

Some things make more sense, and some new questions emerge. However, after thinking things through, I'd usually realize that those questions still apply to a theistic worldview. The biggest questions: Why this? Why that? Why God? Why the universe? Why am I here? What purpose do I serve?

Blah, I've had enough of this brain diarrhea session. Oh yeah, back on topic. Darn Pistons.
 
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Matthew777

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mikeynov said:
This is pointless. You won't and can't cough up an empirical test for Christ's resurrection 2000 years ago (because that's impossible),

It is highly possible and I have already presented it to you several times. Scrutinize the Gospels with the same standards that one would use to realize the reliability of any ancient historical document.
The resurrection of Christ is one of the most well evidenced facts of ancient history. Now, you could with an open mind, actually study the works of those who have already investigated the facts and then form an opinion or you can continue with your false intellectual silliness. In all honesty, you know next to nothing of what you are talking about and it shows. As I've said before, the least you could do is read an introductory book on the subject and perhaps compile some refutations.
 
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mikeynov

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Scrutinize the Gospels with the same standards that one would use to realize the reliability of any ancient historical document.

But the point is you won't elaborate on these standards, or the specific test at all, and how you would apply this standard to test for the supernatural within empirical science. You just lamely shove this issue onto somebody else (ie tell me to go take a hike and get my education from your apologetic sources) instead of defending it yourself. And you constantly do stuff like that.


This is the exact attitude I was talking about in my post. When you jump on the next bandwagon and undoubtedly treat it with the same self-evident arrogance, I'll remind you of this, if I'm still around.

Note also I never claimed to be any expert in biblical historicity. My only point is that your claim of historicity of a supernatural event 2000 years ago is beyond the boundaries of scientific inquiry. I don't need to be an expert to realize that.
 
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Matthew777

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mikeynov said:
But the point is you won't elaborate on these standards, or the specific test at all, and how you would apply this standard to test for the supernatural within empirical science.

I could change your dipers for you but I believe that you at least have enough intelligence to find out on your own.


mikeynov said:
This is the exact attitude I was talking about in my post. When you jump on the next bandwagon and undoubtedly treat it with the same self-evident arrogance, I'll remind you of this, if I'm still around.

I am a freethinking individual. I spent a great deal of time, thought, and anguish in search for the universal. When studying the world religions and human ideologies, I always came back to the question of what can actually be proven. I do not say this in arrogance and I do not say this as the member of any bandwagon but the resurrection of Christ is one of the most well evidenced events of ancient history. However, unless we are able to also establish that we live in a theistic universe, the event itself is nothing more than an anomaly.
 
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aeroz19

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Hungry Hungry Hippo said:
Realizing that God is absent/currently irrelevant, for me, was liberating, eye opening, and scary. Do you experience these emotions as well?

Well, considering that I am a recent deconvert, I don't think all that has fully set in yet. But I can tell you that I can sense a new form of liberation, and a new mental and intellectual state that feels..."natural." If that makes any sense...

You really do see everything through a different eye when you no longer believe in God though. For example, you never have to wonder "Why is God doing this to me?!"

Actually, I never used to wonder about that anyway. I used to think that God was sorta distant and didn't control every aspect of my life.

Some things make more sense,

A LOT more things make sense. Nearly all my questions have been answered.


Yep, those are still there.

Blah, I've had enough of this brain diarrhea session. Oh yeah, back on topic. Darn Pistons.

Ok? lol
 
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aeroz19

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Matthew777 said:
I could change your dipers for you but I believe that you at least have enough intelligence to find out on your own.

Not sure what this insult-sounding remark was supposed to mean. To mean it sounds like, "well, it's soooooooooooo obvious that you should have gotten it." Which only proves his point...

I am a freethinking individual.

You were a freethinking individual. Now, you are not.

I spent a great deal of time, thought, and anguish in search for the universal. When studying the world religions and human ideologies, I always came back to the question of what can actually be proven.

You gave into your spiritual/emotional needs. You comprimised your search and your methods to satisfy your needs. I have also heard that the Orthodox Church has awesome services and makes one feel enveloped in the presence of God and of truth and genuine experience of God. One is made instantly to feel in the presence of holiness. Most likely, you experienced this and were overtaken with it all. The experience, coupled with your spiritual/emotional needs (you mentioned drug use in your journal, for example; this indicates some kind of need for structure) and you latched onto it. It made you happy, and so you stick to it.
 
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mikeynov

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I could change your dipers for you but I believe that you at least have enough intelligence to find out on your own.

Copout.


But it's more than this, Matthew.

Let's say for a second that we live in a "theistic" universe (which is a bit of an abstraction depending on how you define deities).

Now, for one, there's no particular reason any one religion has to have "the answer" in regards to that deity. So systematically disqualifying other religions, as you suggested, is blatantly fallacious, and doesn't strength the Christian position abstractly. Though you never elaborated why, say, Islam isn't as merited, or any of the other thousands of world religions or supernatural accounts documented throughout history.

But ignoring that for a second, let's say that you establish that people around Jesus' time all wrote an account of a guy named Jesus being resurrected.

How could you possibly verify that they were right? Because multiple people said something happened doesn't mean that it had to, particularly when there's good reason to doubt the nature of those claims, given the position of bias involved.

Think of it like this. Say we decided to make up a story like Jesus', base it on some modern day prophet (there's plenty of examples). Say one was killed, for whatever reason, and we all write a mutual account of this guy performing magic and coming back from the dead.

How could, say, future historians determine whether what we wrote now actually pertains to reality? Should they treat supernatural claims with the same nonchalant acceptance as they would, say, an account of who won tonight's basketball championship? In general, extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence - a convergence of people saying it's so, imho, doesn't qualify by a longshot. This is strengthened when most of your sources are religious followers of the individual in question.

The most you could ever conclude is that religious disciples around the time of Jesus said he was crucified and resurrected. That's the limit of empirical science right there. Because at that point, there's literally no way to test for the supernatural claim - the best we can do is that people at the right/place time said it did happen.

Now, I'm guessing Craig is a bit quick to the punch to dismiss other belief systems, and if we really wanted to look at the history of supernatural claims made, you'd have a lot of contenders. By your apparant standards, UFO abductions are a reality - we have more independent observers of UFOs and abduction, including mutual, shared reports, than we ever had for biblical miracles. Similarly, there are real accounts of people in tribal cultures agreeing that magical acts are performed by shamans, in front of everybody. Sometimes, these accounts are written down.

So when I ask for any real test to differentiate between claims of supernatural acts and the fact that people simply said it happens, all you've really done is blow me off. If you seriously think that supernatural claims should be treated the same as natural claims when looking at history, then I'm not honestly sure what to say.
 
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