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The original Greek translation is not "on the contrary " but Rather.
The Gospels also tell us that Mary is blessed BECAUSE she listened and believed to the word of God. It is PRECISELY because of Luke 11:27ff that we venerate Mary, not because she bore and nursed Jesus, but most especially because she listened to God and said yes to him
I decided to look at other verses using that word and it seems it is only used this 1 time in the Gospels.Are you relating verse 28 only to Mary's obedience?That doesn't make any sense to me and doesn't fit the context. I believe that Jesus was referring to everyone who receives and observes the word of God as blessed:
Luke 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed."He wasn't giving His mother any special honor or singling her out from other people but was, in fact, discouraging people from doing that. There is a contrast in those verses, not a double honor to Mary, above others, for bearing Christ and for obeying God's word. Verse 28 applies to all believers, not just Mary.
28 But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."
Can you explain further then? How does verse 28 encourage veneration of Mary, from your perspective? I don't see it that way.
I've read the Martyrdom of Polycarp and Martyrdom of Ignatius and several of the earliest church fathers. I can definitely see the concepts of communion of the saints and veneration of--or at least very high regard for--the martyrs in them. Perhaps veneration of Mary was an outgrowth of those concepts, but I haven't seen any early evidence, preferably from the first couple of centuries, of that practice.
If I'm not mistaken, there is a beautiful account of the Dormition of Mary from the Easterns, describing the apostles that were present as she passed from this world.The Easterns among us have a bit of a different POV than the Latins...I'll see if I can dig some stuff up.
And what bearing does the Roman Catholic Dictionary have upon the Eastern Orthodox?To some it might, but to others it is worship.
The Catholic Dictionary says,
Here goes.That would be fine, they are related concepts in my mind in any case.
Not necessarily because "rather" and "on the contrary" have much different connotations. Kind of like the difference between "great" and "awesome" when describing something.I don't see it. "Rather" would still be a contrasting word.
Meriam Webster definition of "rather"I don't see it. "Rather" would still be a contrasting word.
Meriam Webster definition of "rather"
1 : with better reason or more propriety : more properly <this you should pity rather than despise Shakespeare>
2 : more readily or willingly : preferably <I'd rather not go> <would rather read than watch television> often used interjectionally to express affirmation
3 : more correctly speaking <my father, or rather my stepfather>
4 : to the contrary : instead <was no better but rather grew worse Mark 5:26 (Revised Standard Version)>
5 : in some degree : somewhat <it's rather warm> often used as a mild intensive <spent rather a lot of money>
Consider that Christ was not contradicting what was said about Mary being blessed by physically being his mother, but that she was blessed 'with better reason' because of her willingness to do the will of the Father.
The Easterns among us have a bit of a different POV than the Latins...I'll see if I can dig some stuff up.
Here goes.
1) This first one is more about the Communion of Saints as Orthodox understand the term: Is There An Invisible Church?
2) This second is a bit on the veneration of saints in general: On the Veneration of the Saints
3) This one is a bit long: On the Veneration of the Holy Relics and Remains of the Saints
4) This one is very long, but if you Ctrl F the Roman numeral "VII" it will take you to the history of veneration of the Theotokos (Mary): Veneration of the Virgin Mary
5) Last one! For now. The bottom half of this article has a not-so-detailed 'timeline' of quotes and so forth. I would suggest looking at the quotes and going from there. Oh, and reading the rest of the article as well. The oldest goes back as far as Job in the OT. On the Intercession and Invocation of the Saints
Looking up the Ecumenical Council at Ephesus in 431 would definately help when looking at Mary specifically.
Unfortunately, I can not locate my first five or so century sources at the moment. When I do find them, I shall send them via pm.
Well, for one thing, Christ was commanded by the Father to honor her, and that cannot be said for any of us.But, again, Luke 11:28 refers to everyone who receives the word of God as blessed. I just don't see how that supports the idea that Mary should be given more honor than anyone else.
In recent years I have found myself attracted more and more to the arguments of the apostolic churches.
However, there is one major teaching that still makes it hard for me to ever consider joining myself to an apostolic church. That teaching is veneration of saints, Mary, etc.
Now I know this topic has been worked over before. And I think I may have even had a thread on it before. But my wife and I were talking tonight on our evening walk and both said that if we could find evidence of veneration in the earliest centuries it would go a long ways toward helping us resolve our differences with the apostolic churches.
So here is my question for the apostolic church adherents: What original source materials refer to veneration in the first three centuries?
Please cite specific references so that I can look them up in their original context.
I have read some of the church fathers, but I have not read them nearly as much some of the good folks on this board, I am sure.
And without a doubt Scripture references would be the most valuable. But I am not aware of any strong arguments from Scripture regarding veneration.
Thanks for any help you can give.
Hermas
"[The Shepherd said:] But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).
Clement of Alexandria
"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).
Origen
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Fathers mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).
Anonymous
"Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins" (funerary inscription near St. Sabinas in Rome [A.D. 300]).
"Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days" (ibid.).
"Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger" (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).
Methodius
"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Sons love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Fatherthe Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).
"Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid.).
"And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God" (ibid.).
In recent years I have found myself attracted more and more to the arguments of the apostolic churches.
However, there is one major teaching that still makes it hard for me to ever consider joining myself to an apostolic church. That teaching is veneration of saints, Mary, etc.
Now I know this topic has been worked over before. And I think I may have even had a thread on it before. But my wife and I were talking tonight on our evening walk and both said that if we could find evidence of veneration in the earliest centuries it would go a long ways toward helping us resolve our differences with the apostolic churches.
So here is my question for the apostolic church adherents: What original source materials refer to veneration in the first three centuries?
Please cite specific references so that I can look them up in their original context.
I have read some of the church fathers, but I have not read them nearly as much some of the good folks on this board, I am sure.
And without a doubt Scripture references would be the most valuable. But I am not aware of any strong arguments from Scripture regarding veneration.
Thanks for any help you can give.
So you're saying don't honor or respect them?Here is a source who warns against what you're proposing (Martyrdom of Polycarp):
... he (the adversary) did his utmost that not the least memorial of him should be taken away by us, although many desired to do this, and to become possessors of his holy flesh. For this end he suggested it to Nicetes, the father of Herod and brother of Alce, to go and entreat the governor not to give up his body to be buried, lest, said he, forsaking Him that was crucified, they begin to worship this one. This he said at the suggestion and urgent persuasion of the Jews, who also watched us, as we sought to take him out of the fire, being ignorant of this, that it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners ), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow disciples!
CHURCH FATHERS: Martyrdom of Polycarp (chapter 17)
Worship God alone, but love His followers. DO NOT WORSHIP/VENERATE the others as some are want to do.
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