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Good point.. what of those with Alzheimer's ?
Hey brother, yes, I emphasized one side of the equation more than the other to make the point I was trying to make in that post. I didn't include my complete understanding of perseverance/eternal security, I only hinted at, like this:Your theology .. leaves no place for Christians who have experienced the repentance and sanctification that comes through faith in Christ and then years later start to fall back into some of their old habits and sins through complacency and forgetfulness. According to you they were never truly saved.
Hey brother, yes, I emphasized one side of the equation more than the other to make the point I was trying to make in that post. I didn't include my complete understanding of perseverance/eternal security, I only hinted at, like this:
...true saints of God will persevere in their faith (albeit imperfectly)...The qualifying phrase (in bold) was actually my own, cryptic reference to this far more complete thought on the matter from the Westminster Confession of Faith (which I could have easily referenced in my last post but unfortunately failed to do):
Chapter XVII. Of the Perseverance of the Saints
Section I.–They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.
Section II.–This perseverance of the saints depends, not upon their own freewill, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ; the abiding of the Spirit and of the seed of God within them; and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
Section III.–Nevertheless they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalence of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their perseverance, fall into grievous sins; and for a time continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit; come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts; have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalise others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.
I'm very sorry if what I said was upsetting to you (and I can understand from your POV why it probably was). I'll try my best to be a little clearer (and less cryptic) next time, but please don't hesitate to point these kind of mistakes out to me again whenever you see me making them (I truly appreciate the fact that you took the time to do so).
God bless you! (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24)
--David
Perhaps this will prove useful to you. Here is the original text (Westminster Confession of Faith) of 1646, from the manuscript of Cornelius Burges, with the Assembly’s proof texts, as published in the modern critical edition of 1937 by S. W. Carruthers.It seems scriptural and I appreciate your extra text of information. I hope it is correct but I will ultimately take scripture as the final word of authority. I sometimes wish scripture was a bit more clear about these things but God knows best. Thank you.
Yes, it's always best to avoid those who are able to reveal false teaching and defend the truth.I advised Invalid to not waste his time,
and he took my advice.
Where in the world would you or anyone else get this nonsense idea from?I just realized that he's one of those people who believes that whoever believes in Jesus now will never perish but go to either hell or heaven and the rest of everyone will be destroyed into nothingness. A pretty damnable heresy.
Yes, I agree. His conclusion regarding my views are totally unbelievable, since I absolutely reject annihilationism.Totally unbelievable!
How come Calvinists cannot understand 1 Tim 4:1 or Luke 8:13?The Bible teaches eternal security, but never apart from the sense that the true saints of God will persevere in their faith (albeit imperfectly) ~because~ we are born again, justified/saved saints of God (not to become or to remain saved).
It is important to discern between positional and progressive sanctification. If one cannot do that, they cannot grasp the truth about sanctification. Being sealed IN Christ means the believer is positionally sanctified. However, progressive sanctification depends on the believer growing up in respect to his salvation (1 Pet 2:2).In fact, the very One who graciously saved us in the first place also promised that He would sanctify us, as well see us safely through this life to be with Him in Glory .. e.g. John 6:37-40; John 10:27-28; Philippians 1:6, 2:13; Hebrews 7:25; cf 1 John 5:13.
If they actually did believe in Jesus Christ for salvation, they ARE saved and ARE never going to perish. But they will not have a pleasant life on earth, due to God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11) and will lose eternal rewards, given only to faithful believers.Those who claim to be Christians, but continue to live an unrepentant, sinful life/lifestyle after making that claim, need to carefully consider the fact that they are not Christians .. and never were.
--David
I know you took BCSenior's advice to ignore me, but for everyone else, if you really do "care more about the truth than your feelings", why have you so blatantly rejected the clear words of Jesus in John 10:28. That recipients of eternal life shall never perish.No worries friend. I care more about the truth than my feelings and if something you said is true then I would prefer that than something that is a lie and soothes my feelings.
Except John 10:28, for example. Or 1 Pet 1:23. Or many more verses.I would agree with you on your points of theology for the most part. It seems scriptural and I appreciate your extra text of information. I hope it is correct but I will ultimately take scripture as the final word of authority.
Wow. John 10:28 and 1 Pet 1:23 couldn't be any more clear.I sometimes wish scripture was a bit more clear about these things but God knows best. Thank you.
Hey, thanks for this link. What I read from the WCF is not "perseverance" in the sense of continuing in the faith, or continuing to believe, but eternal security, which is certainly biblical.Perhaps this will prove useful to you. Here is the original text (Westminster Confession of Faith) of 1646, from the manuscript of Cornelius Burges, with the Assembly’s proof texts, as published in the modern critical edition of 1937 by S. W. Carruthers.
The Westminster Confession of Faith (1647) by Various
Scrolling just slightly over half way down the page will get you to Sections 17, Of the Perseverance of the Saints and 18, Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation, where you will find both the text of the WCF and the Scriptural proofs that show us why the Westminster Divines wrote the words they did in those sections of our Confession.
--David
There is zero reason to assume that the rest of humanity won't be tormented day and night, for ever and ever, just as the antichrist, false prophet and Sat?
They will exist eternally, but, since they aren't in a free or forgiven state, calling it "life" would be a misnomer. Rather, call it a constant state of being born and dying in every age to come; "destruction" would be a better word for it.So they too have been rewarded with eternal life?
Okay, David, this is very impressive ...The Bible teaches eternal security, but never apart from the sense that the true saints of God will persevere in their faith (albeit imperfectly) ~because~ we are born again, justified/saved saints of God (not to become or to remain saved). In fact, the very One who graciously saved us in the first place also promised that He would sanctify us, as well see us safely through this life to be with Him in Glory .. e.g. John 6:37-40; John 10:27-28; Philippians 1:6, 2:13; Hebrews 7:25; cf 1 John 5:13.
Those who claim to be Christians, but continue to live an unrepentant, sinful life/lifestyle after making that claim, need to carefully consider the fact that they are not Christians .. and never were.
Perhaps THIS above is the most sound theology so far.Your (David's) theology is the most sound theology in this thread. However it leaves no place for Christians who have experienced the repentance and sanctification that comes through faith in Christ and then years later start to fall back into some of their old habits and sins through complacency and forgetfulness. According to you they were never truly saved.
Are you serious??!!So they too have been rewarded with eternal life?
Re: the Westminster Confession of Faith ......true saints of God will persevere in their faith (albeit imperfectly)...
No offence but that sounds kinda like something mankind made up. But good to know that death and the grave live on in the Lake. I was worried the Kingdom had eliminated the need for them.They will exist eternally, but, since they aren't in a free or forgiven state, calling it "life" would be a misnomer. Rather, call it a constant state of being born and dying in every age to come; "destruction" would be a better word for it.
Are you serious??!!
Why would you equate eternal torment with eternal life?? The Bible sure doesn't.
Maybe you are unfamiliar with the Bible, but several times the Bible speaks of the lake of fire as the "second DEATH".
Did you get that? Death, not life, as you erroneously suppose.
I'm going to conclude that you haven't been taught the various ways that "death" is used in the Bible. Spiritual death (the second death) is permanent separation from God, in the lake of fire.
There will be NO LIFE there. Only permanent spiritual death, or separation from God. And the Bible describes it all as torment, day and night, for ever and ever.
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