Must we be Born Again?

[TheScottsMen]

Acts 9 and above dispensationalist hold that the Gosepls are for us, just not written to us. With this in mind, must we be Born again as started in Johns Gospel? Is being Born Again (as stated by Christ in his earthly ministry) and becoming a New Creation (stated by Christ in His heavenly ministry through Paul) the same thing?

 

[Uzziah]

Hi

Acts 9 and above dispensationalist hold that the Gosepls are for us, just not written to us. With this in mind, must we be Born again as started in Johns Gospel? Is being Born Again (as stated by Christ in his earthly ministry) and becoming a New Creation (stated by Christ in His heavenly ministry through Paul) the same thing?

Being an acts 2 dispy i believe being born again can be applied to the saved of the church. I am aware of the mid acts teaching on the gospels and why they say being born again cannot be applied to this dispensation. I have my reasons for not agreeing;maybe this thread will give me the chance to look at those reasons more carefully.

U

 

[@@Paul@@]

Acts 9 and above dispensationalist hold that the Gosepls are for us, just not written to us. With this in mind, must we be Born again as started in Johns Gospel? Is being Born Again (as stated by Christ in his earthly ministry) and becoming a New Creation (stated by Christ in His heavenly ministry through Paul) the same thing?

Even being an Acts 28 dispy i can see this applied to the church today...

The method of salvation has always been the same, it's the purpose after we're saved that changed...

 

[TheScottsMen]

Even being an Acts 28 dispy i can see this applied to the church today...

The method of salvation has always been the same, it's the purpose after we're saved that changed...

The method (grace & faith) has always been the same, how that faith was shown has been different. The requirements of being "Born Again" (which is listed through out the Gospel of John, not just in 3:16) are not the same requirements that we the church have. To say that we can be "Born Again", would also mean that we would need to follow the same rules that Chirst gave them (Baptism + Faith). If we can be "Born Again", where are we Born into? The Body of Christ? When Jesus spoke of being Born Again, would this have been into the body? Paul speaks of being a new creation, this new creation comes from being baptized into the Body, not of the Kingdom. When Jesus refered to being Born again, would this be also by the one baptism? I'll state my scripture tomm!

TSM

 

[Uzziah]

The method (grace & faith) has always been the same, how that faith was shown has been different. The requirements of being "Born Again" (which is listed through out the Gospel of John, not just in 3:16) are not the same requirements that we the church have. To say that we can be "Born Again", would also mean that we would need to follow the same rules that Chirst gave them (Baptism + Faith). If we can be "Born Again", where are we Born into? The Body of Christ? When Jesus spoke of being Born Again, would this have been into the body? Paul speaks of being a new creation, this new creation comes from being baptized into the Body, not of the Kingdom. When Jesus refered to being Born again, would this be also by the one baptism? I'll state my scripture tomm!

The usage of the phrase "born again" in John 3 and 1 Peter doesn't state that those who are born again are born "into" anything. John 3:3 states "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God". "The kingdom of God" is not always the Davidic Kingdom e.g Paul speaks of the Kingdom of God in many of his epistles, most notably in Colossians which Acts 28 dispys will take note of.

Col 4:11 and Jesus called Justus, who are of the circumcision. These are the only fellow-workers for the kingdom of God who have been a consolation to me.

Act 28:30 And he remained two whole years in his own hired lodging, and received all who came to him,
Act 28:31 preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching the things concerning the Lord Jesus Christ, with all freedom unhinderedly.
etc

Being born again is a spiritual concept of going from one state to another. From the flesh to the spirit. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the spirit is spirit" John 3:6. Although, of course it did have a special meaning to Nicodemus, he, having been born into the privilaged Jewish race, Christ would have him understand that being born a Jew now meant nothing and he now needed to be born from above. Never the less the principle can be applied to salvation generally.

U

 

[TheScottsMen]

The usage of the phrase "born again" in John 3 and 1 Peter doesn't state that those who are born again are born "into" anything. John 3:3 states "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God". "The kingdom of God" is not always the Davidic Kingdom e.g Paul speaks of the Kingdom of God in many of his epistles, most notably in Colossians which Acts 28 dispys will take note of.

Col 4:11 and Jesus called Justus, who are of the circumcision. These are the only fellow-workers for the kingdom of God who have been a consolation to me.

Act 28:30 And he remained two whole years in his own hired lodging, and received all who came to him,
Act 28:31 preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching the things concerning the Lord Jesus Christ, with all freedom unhinderedly.
etc

Being born again is a spiritual concept of going from one state to another. From the flesh to the spirit. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the spirit is spirit" John 3:6. Although, of course it did have a special meaning to Nicodemus, he, having been born into the privilaged Jewish race, Christ would have him understand that being born a Jew now meant nothing and he now needed to be born from above. Never the less the principle can be applied to salvation generally.

U

And how was one Born Again when Christ spoke these words?

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

In this our terms of salvation? If one has faith, one would be baptized, baptism was required. Is it today under the grace dispensation?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

"...so loved the world.." This is the world through Israel. The gentiles were to blessed by the rise of Israel , not the fall.

"..but have everlasting life..." Lets not read this into a dispensation that had not yet begun or even spoken of. What was this everlasting life? Where WAS this everlasting life to take place? Did the Jews have a heavenly hope? Was their everlasting life to be in Heaven? Or does prophecy tell us on Earth?

Apart from Christ heavenly ministry, which was revealed to Paul, no one is saved today.

John 3:16 is for our us, but it is not written to us. A new nature takes place in becoming a new creation, but the requirements put down in John 3:16 (and the Gospels as a whole) were for the Jews.

 

[Uzziah]

And how was one Born Again when Christ spoke these words?

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

In this our terms of salvation? If one has faith, one would be baptized, baptism was required. Is it today under the grace dispensation?

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

It was he that believeth not that was damned, not he that believeth and was not baptised. Do we have scripture to prove that believing was the only way for a person to be saved? plenty.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

None of the above texts say anything about baptism, but they do state that "he that believeth hath everlasting life".

I don't agree with ultra-dispies on alot of things, this is one of them.

we are now living in the time of Israel's rejection of Christ. What about John's gospel? It was written form the point of view of the Israel's rejection of Christ, the fall of Israel.

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

John begins with Israel's rejection...

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Then with Christ seen as the sacrifice, not just for Israel, but for the whole world.

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Salvation back then was also through the death of Christ...

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The Jews knew what "lifted up" meant, it meant death on a cross..

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Joh 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Joh 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

What about John 4:22 which UD use to try and prove John's gospel is only for Israel...

Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Phi 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

M

 

[@@Paul@@]

Acts 9 and above dispensationalist hold that the Gosepls are for us, just not written to us. With this in mind, must we be Born again as started in Johns Gospel? Is being Born Again (as stated by Christ in his earthly ministry) and becoming a New Creation (stated by Christ in His heavenly ministry through Paul) the same thing?

You know what TSM, I've looked into this a little more after having a guest speaker Sunday morning and have moved the line a little...

being "Born Again" was a call to the naiton of Israel > they were the first born and was in need of being "born again".

The nation was born by WATER in the wilderness as they were "baptised" into MOSES. God was building a new nation, that would bring forth "the fruits thereof", by placing His SPIRIT in them - thus being born AGAIN.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​

Which explains Pauls plee in Romans 2, being the seed of Abraham (born of Water) is not enough to inherit the promises. Rom 2:17, Rom 9:7 A Jew ALSO must have a circumcision of the heart (born of the Spirit). Rom 2:29

 

[Iosias]

The Need to be "Born Again" Regretably, the term "born again" has become much confused in today's society. The term "born again" is a phrase used by Jesus. In the first 7 verses of John chapter 3 we read:

• "Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him." In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'

Nicodemus was a Pharisee. He was a religious leader, and certainly would have been thought of as a moral man. He would have known the first 5 books of the Old Testament (the Jewish Law) like the back of his hand. Surely if anyone could become a Christian by their own good works, it would have been Nicodemus. But what did Jesus say to him? "You must be born again." Jesus went on to describe what He meant. If a person is going to be alive physically, he must have a physical birth. And similarly, if a person is going to be alive spiritually, he must have a spiritual birth. This is what it means to be "born again". It means that there has been a time in your life when you have had a spiritual birth.

How to be "Born Again"
So how can I be born again? In John 3:16-18, Jesus goes on to describe this concept, and what a person must do to be born again.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

To "believe in him" obviously doesn't mean to simply believe He exists. Even the Devil believes that much! But rather, to "believe in Him" means to trust that He died to pay the penalty for your sins, and that through trusting in Him, you can be certain you will go to Heaven.

How Can I be Born Again?
"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" (I John 5:1). "As many as received Him, to them gave He power [the right] to become the sons [children] of God, even to them that believe on His name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1: 12, 13).

You become a Christian by trusting a Person-receiving a Person. The very moment you do this, the Lord Jesus Christ enters-and life begins.

What Does it Mean to Believe?
To "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 16:31) means more than believing the historic facts concerning Him. Intellectual belief about Christ is not enough. If you believe that God is one; you are doing well, but understand that the demons also believe, and shudder. But demons are not born again. The belief which accompanies eternal life must be "with the heart" - "For with the heart man believes unto righteousness" (Romans 10:10).

To "believe" Christ means to rely on Him alone. It is not "Christ and baptism" or "Christ and my faith"; it is trusting Him alone. To "believe Christ" means to so definitely and deliberately depend on Him, that if He should fall there is nothing left. The Lord Jesus says, "He that hears My word, and believes on Him that sent Me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5:24). Have you believed on the Lord Jesus Cost? If so, then you are "born again." You have passed out of death into life. Take God at His word, and go on your way rejoicing!

Praise the LORD for copy and paste!

 

[Iosias]

Hi

I am aware of the mid acts teaching on the gospels and why they say being born again cannot be applied to this dispensation.

Could you fill me in?

 

[Uzziah]

Many, if not most post acts 2 dispensationalists believe all four gospels were to Israel and that there is nothing in them that is to the Church. Being born again is for Israel and is part of the kingdom gospel.
To prove it they use verses such as....

Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

M

 

[lightninboy]

We must be born again.

I reckon it's the same as regeneration.

 

[Jerrysch]

Acts 9 and above dispensationalist hold that the Gosepls are for us, just not written to us. With this in mind, must we be Born again as started in Johns Gospel? Is being Born Again (as stated by Christ in his earthly ministry) and becoming a New Creation (stated by Christ in His heavenly ministry through Paul) the same thing?

It seems as if some are trying to make a distinction here between what they percieve as two groups, and yet anyone who has anything to do with any of God's plans for the future has got to be justified by faith. Right now those who are justified by faith are members in the church, before the cross they were not members of it for it was not built at that time, It seems to me the consept of being born again and a New creation all draw thier basis from being justified by faith, more to follow.

PS this is my 3,000 post!!

 

[Iosias]

Haven't seen TSM for a while!

 

[marke]

The Need to be "Born Again" Regretably, the term "born again" has become much confused in today's society. The term "born again" is a phrase used by Jesus. In the first 7 verses of John chapter 3 we read:

• "Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him." In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'

Nicodemus was a Pharisee. He was a religious leader, and certainly would have been thought of as a moral man. He would have known the first 5 books of the Old Testament (the Jewish Law) like the back of his hand. Surely if anyone could become a Christian by their own good works, it would have been Nicodemus. But what did Jesus say to him? "You must be born again." Jesus went on to describe what He meant. If a person is going to be alive physically, he must have a physical birth. And similarly, if a person is going to be alive spiritually, he must have a spiritual birth. This is what it means to be "born again". It means that there has been a time in your life when you have had a spiritual birth.

How to be "Born Again"
So how can I be born again? In John 3:16-18, Jesus goes on to describe this concept, and what a person must do to be born again.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

To "believe in him" obviously doesn't mean to simply believe He exists. Even the Devil believes that much! But rather, to "believe in Him" means to trust that He died to pay the penalty for your sins, and that through trusting in Him, you can be certain you will go to Heaven.

How Can I be Born Again?
"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" (I John 5:1). "As many as received Him, to them gave He power [the right] to become the sons [children] of God, even to them that believe on His name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1: 12, 13).

You become a Christian by trusting a Person-receiving a Person. The very moment you do this, the Lord Jesus Christ enters-and life begins.

What Does it Mean to Believe?
To "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 16:31) means more than believing the historic facts concerning Him. Intellectual belief about Christ is not enough. If you believe that God is one; you are doing well, but understand that the demons also believe, and shudder. But demons are not born again. The belief which accompanies eternal life must be "with the heart" - "For with the heart man believes unto righteousness" (Romans 10:10).

To "believe" Christ means to rely on Him alone. It is not "Christ and baptism" or "Christ and my faith"; it is trusting Him alone. To "believe Christ" means to so definitely and deliberately depend on Him, that if He should fall there is nothing left. The Lord Jesus says, "He that hears My word, and believes on Him that sent Me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5:24). Have you believed on the Lord Jesus Cost? If so, then you are "born again." You have passed out of death into life. Take God at His word, and go on your way rejoicing!

Praise the LORD for copy and paste!

That's all good and fine, but there is a qualification to being "Born Again" and that qualification comes about in the fruit of the Spirit. Anyone can call themselves a Christian, but if their actions are not those what are detailed as "Fruits of the spirit" and instead those detailed as those whom are lost, then they are NOT born again, but exactly as Jesus tells us... those who are called, but not chosen. Many will come in His name, but how do you discern which is which, by their actions according to that guy Jesus.

Don't be deceived. Many are called, but few are chosen. Isn't it time Pop Christianity focuses on what it takes be be among the chosen instead of the nonsense of when Jesus is coming back? Jesus Himself doesn't know the hour, but ministers of error have many spending all their time seeking that answer. It's a shame.

God bless.

 

[Bick]

Acts 9 and above dispensationalist hold that the Gosepls are for us, just not written to us. With this in mind, must we be Born again as started in Johns Gospel? Is being Born Again (as stated by Christ in his earthly ministry) and becoming a New Creation (stated by Christ in His heavenly ministry through Paul) the same thing?

IMO, being 'born anew (from above--literally) is something Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews, should have understood from his knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures.
NOTICE: Jesus declares this before the cross, before His passion. Nicodemus did not understand it to be a requirement for the kingdom; he did not recognize the neccessity for a spiritual renewal. He thought that physical relation with Israel was sufficient for the kingdom.

WHEN WILL THIS BE? Hebrews 8:8ff, quoting Jer.31:33-34, tells us: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah...This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God and they will be my people."

During Jesus ministry, there were a remnant of Israelites, and some Gentiles, who believed in him as Messiah, Son of God, and they will be resurrected and enter the kingdom.

While Jesus preached to his own people concerning the 'kingdom of the heavens' (in Matt.), and 'kingdom of God' in the other Gospels, to Paul was revealed the secret of the church/body of Christ whose destiny is in the celestials, as heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ. We are a 'new creation', called 'saints'---set apart ones--for the glory of God. Read Eph. ch. 1-3.

Bick

 

[billwald]

Yes, you must be born again, regenerated. As John 3 teaches. the Holy Spirit regenerates whom she will. Regeneration preceeds conversion.