Murdering Abortion Doctors

[eclipsoul]

I don't believe anyone here really understands the profound evil of Abortion.

Otherwise, I wouldn't have people giving all sorts of reasons why vigilantism is more evil than genocide, why the state's laws trumps God's commandments, and why innocent human life can be traded for obedience to a piece of paper called our constitution.

Your idol is the state.

 

[neocon]

.............................The only reason a pro-life christian should be against killing abortions doctors is because he is against killing in all forms - because he is a pacifist like me.

Abortion can be brought to an end quite peacefully- though being willing to lose property and taken some physical abuse may well be part of the price - any time Christians as a whole are willing to get off their butts. Murder is not required.

 

[Rev. Smith]

1) Vigilantism is wrong. It is up to the state to punish people, not individuals.

I think this may be something of a straw man - those that believe in the rule of law as a way to organise society are not doing so out of some weakness, but rather out of an ideal - the ideal that to be a nation of laws, not men, makes all of us safer and more secure. Thus many of us oppose vigilantism out of a more compelling principal, rather than mere deferance to society.

2) Murdering abortion doctors would not stop abortions. It would only incite people against the pro-life movement.

Another misplaced argument - I have no idea if a sustained campaighn of murdering abortion Doctors would stop abortion or not, what I do know is that murdering people is one of the gravest sins. As much as we, as Christians, despise abortion it is a sociatal problem, not a medical one. It is a fairly safe bet that the abortion doctors believe what they are doing is moral and lawful, or they wouldn't do it.

Murdering people is wrong, in abortion clinics, prisons and on the streets or in the homes. Murdering people to prevent murder is simply increasing the supply of mortal sinners, of which I feel we are adequitly supplied.

 

[eclipsoul]

I don't believe anyone here really understands the profound evil of Abortion.

Otherwise, I wouldn't have people giving all sorts of reasons why vigilantism is more evil than genocide, why the state's laws trumps God's commandments, and why innocent human life can be traded for obedience to a piece of paper called our constitution.

Your idol is the state.

 

[Philosoft]

Murdering people is always wrong, I agree. But murder is typically defined as killing innocents.

False. It's a legal term from Old English and, as far as I know, it has always referred to an unlawful killing, or a criminal homicide.

Furthermore, "innocents" is a deeply religiously-loaded term. There are some Christians, for example, who interpret Original Sin to the extent that even newborns don't qualify.

If we are pro-life, it is difficult to state that abortion doctors are innocent. Regardless of their intent, they are responsible for the death of innocents. If we can bomb innocent iraqis to protect our nation, why can we not kill murderous doctors to protect our unborn?

This passage is only meaningful if you fallaciously narrow the definition of "murder." Since I have shown your redefinition to be in error, this argument is no longer relevant.

 

[eclipsoul]

Like I said in my original post, I'm playing a bit of Devil's advocate here. I agree with the idea that none of us are innocent, and you are right about murder - it is simply a reference to killing that is not legally sanctioned.

But all of that avoids my original question.

 

[Philosoft]

Like I said in my original post, I'm playing a bit of Devil's advocate here. I agree with the idea that none of us are innocent, and you are right about murder - it is simply a reference to killing that is not legally sanctioned.

But all of that avoids my original question.

I don't think so. Vigilantism is properly objectionable unless it can be justified. The argument that it's sometimes okay to murder those who murder others fails because abortion doctors are not actually engaging in murder. And the 'killing of innocents' part is problematic because there's considerable disagreement about what's innocent - or innocent enough; besides, does God say anywhere that it's okay to kill those who kill "innocents"?

 

[AndOne]

Let me preface this by saying I am a Catholic Pacifist and was discharged from the Army as a Conscientious Objector last December. In no way do I advocate killing anyone, and certainly not abortion doctors.

But my question is this:

If abortion is the taking of an innocent human life,
if abortion takes over 500,000 american lives a year,
and if abortion is murder and genocide...

Then why is it wrong to kill abortion doctors to prevent them from slaughtering thousands of innocent babies?

Most pro-life supporters do not advocate killing abortion doctors, and typically they give one of two reasons:

1) Vigilantism is wrong. It is up to the state to punish people, not individuals.

2) Murdering abortion doctors would not stop abortions. It would only incite people against the pro-life movement.

My responses to those two reasons:

1) Vigilantism may be the only response left for citizens who belong to an unjust nation. In WWII, when the Nazi's were slaughtering jews, was it proper for Germans to say, "Well, we will work to get laws passed to protect the jews, but we simply won't do anything on our own. That would be vigilantism." Moreover, the Supreme Court has made it clear that no law could ever be passed to stop abortion. There is no hope that the State will stop abortion, unless an amendment is passed.

2) Murdering abortion doctors might very well cause a backlash against the pro-life movement, but when did we sacrifice our priciples because we were afraid of the consequences? Is defending human life with violence only appropriate when you have a chance of winning? Even if that is true, abortion could be stopped overnight through the actions of 100 committed individuals. Within one week of abortion bombings and murders around the country, no doctor would step inside a clinic. It would be terrorism, yes, but it would work. Is not the lives of millions of babies worth being painted as evil? Isn't good always painted as evil?

The only reason a pro-life christian should be against killing abortions doctors is because he is against killing in all forms - because he is a pacifist like me.

If this isn't a loaded question/post - I don't know what is. Well you sure as heck don't sound like any pacifist I've heard before - and it sounds like you'd be just fine with someone killing abortion doctors. So long as you're not the one pulling the trigger - makes no difference to you - right?

Don't advocate killing anyone? Especially abortion doctors? Could have fooled me...

 

[scraparcs]

If your ultimate goal is to get rid of doctors who perform abortions, there are quite a few tactics short of murder that could do the trick rather well.

Let's see, you could increase malpractice insurance on abortion providers to the point where the less financially successful are forced out of practice, make abortion an extremely unlucrative career choice to the point that abortion providers are financially struggling due to their choice, picket abortion providing clinics day and night, and a whole lot of other tactics to try to drive abortion providers out of providing abortions and into another line of medicine. I sure don't condone these and am quite appalled by the idea of such tactics, but if your ultimate goal is to get abortion providers out of business, there are other ways besides murder.

And while we're at it...

1) Vigilantism may be the only response left for citizens who belong to an unjust nation. In WWII, when the Nazi's were slaughtering jews, was it proper for Germans to say, "Well, we will work to get laws passed to protect the jews, but we simply won't do anything on our own. That would be vigilantism." Moreover, the Supreme Court has made it clear that no law could ever be passed to stop abortion. There is no hope that the State will stop abortion, unless an amendment is passed.

There are some cases when vigilantism may be justified, but I don't think the US is at that point with abortion. First of all, the state may well stop abortion at some point in the future. I doubt it would be soon, but it could happen. Second, there are many other ways to try to stop abortion short of vigilantism which have not been fully exercised, such as making alternatives to abortion even more accessible.

2) Murdering abortion doctors might very well cause a backlash against the pro-life movement, but when did we sacrifice our priciples because we were afraid of the consequences? Is defending human life with violence only appropriate when you have a chance of winning? Even if that is true, abortion could be stopped overnight through the actions of 100 committed individuals. Within one week of abortion bombings and murders around the country, no doctor would step inside a clinic. It would be terrorism, yes, but it would work. Is not the lives of millions of babies worth being painted as evil? Isn't good always painted as evil?

I think you would cause more backlash within the pro-life movement than against the pro-life movement as a whole. I suspect that a great number of pro-life adherents would find the idea of killing abortion doctors repugnant and disassociate themselves from any pro-life movement which advocated the murder of abortion doctors.

 

[Jet Black]

If abortion is the taking of an innocent human life,
if abortion takes over 500,000 american lives a year,
and if abortion is murder and genocide...

if abortion is murder, and abortion doctors were murderers, then fine, punish them accordingly (I don't think death is the way to punish them, just life in prison will do). The problem of course is that abortion is not murder, which is a legally defined term. Foetuses are not regarded as humans and do not have the rights that humans have whether you agree with this or not. Put it another way, certain crimes in Islamic sharia law carry a punishment of death, but one would not expect for example, an american women to be cable whipped because she is showing her hair, simply because showing ones hair is not a crime in the US. Abortion is not a crime in the US either, and whether one agrees with it or not, it is wrong to act as if one is the creater and executor of law.

 

[Western Deity]

"If abortion is the taking of an innocent human life,
if abortion takes over 500,000 american lives a year,
and if abortion is murder and genocide..."

But it isn't... the any answer to this hypothetical has no bearing on the real world. However, I get the feeling somebody is going to try to translate this, and somehow make it pertinent to real life...

 

[Duggie]

Over here in the UK we have a no. of organisations that target scientists that experiment on animals. They send letter bombs to their addresses, physically attack them and make it very difficult for these people to go about their daily lives. Does the violent actions of a few stop or decrease the animal testing? The answer is no, the doctors continue to work, even with a risk of a threat to their life, hanging over them. Those who perform abortions will likely be targeted in the same way, but it won't stop them doing their job.Abortions will not be stopped through violent means. The fact that there is such a demand for abortions ultimately means, that sadly they will always exist and be required.

 

[NewToLife]

Does the violent actions of a few stop or decrease the animal testing? The answer is no

Just an observation. Firstly I am strongly opposed to violent action against either abortionists or animal testers ( or indeed anyone else ). However we delude ourselves if we actually believe that violent action ( ie terrorism ) does not work. Animal testing has been prevented on occasion due to the fear induced in the testers.

 

[Duggie]

[NewToLife]Just an observation. Firstly I am strongly opposed to violent action against either abortionists or animal testers ( or indeed anyone else ). However we delude ourselves if we actually believe that violent action ( ie terrorism ) does not work. Animal testing has been prevented on occasion due to the fear induced in the testers.

Only in some instances... Violence will not cause animal experiments or abortion to cease altogether.

 

[Kira Faye]

wow how violent are you people? Why kill abortion docotrs anyway its not their fault, how about blame the irresponsible people who get them done without any real reason (reasons include: rape, medical problems to both the mum and child and that sort of thing.) You know what will happen once you get rid of all your abortion doctors, the people havign abortions will still get preganant and they will resort to backyard abortions with crochet needles and as such.......such fun.

And what abotu animal testing, so many people are nw able to live because of tests liek that for medication....while I hope to god they find other ways to do which they are, its kinda hipocritical to say I don't like animal testing then reap the benefits of it.

I'm amazed people can talk about killing people so easily and judge so easily......and be christian! how about you leave it to your omnipotent god to sort out cause liek they said let he who is without sin cast teh first stone and onyl god would fit that one.

 

[slayer-2004]

I wonder what makes people think killing abortion doctors will stop abortion .

 

[Duggie]

[Kira Faye]wow how violent are you people? Why kill abortion docotrs anyway its not their fault, how about blame the irresponsible people who get them done without any real reason (reasons include: rape, medical problems to both the mum and child and that sort of thing.) You know what will happen once you get rid of all your abortion doctors, the people havign abortions will still get preganant and they will resort to backyard abortions with crochet needles and as such.......such fun.

And what abotu animal testing, so many people are nw able to live because of tests liek that for medication....while I hope to god they find other ways to do which they are, its kinda hipocritical to say I don't like animal testing then reap the benefits of it.

I'm amazed people can talk about killing people so easily and judge so easily......and be christian! how about you leave it to your omnipotent god to sort out cause liek they said let he who is without sin cast teh first stone and onyl god would fit that one.

To be fair Kira I don't think anybody here is actually advocating killing doctors who perfrom abortions (if anything the opposite). Most, like myself have objected to it and would by no means condone such behaviour.

 

[Kira Faye]

but even thinking about it, it makes me wonder why this topic was even brought up?!

 

[Ryal Kane]

Personally I'm pro choice. I think those who target abortion doctors are hypocritcal zealots and terrorists (I know that word gets bandied around a lot these days but the actions of the exremeitts in thes group fits the bill)

That said, I think there are a huge number of these aortions that shouldn't be needed in the first place. Too much unsafe sex. I know it sounds preachy but there needs to be more education and more personal responsibility.

Te choice to have an abortion is a terrible one, one that I'll never directly have to make.

The sad irony is that many of the anti abortion groups are anti sex education, pushing for abstianance programs that only increase unwanted pregnancy rates.

Silence, stigma and ignorance are the greatest enemies.
But then you can picket and car bomb them can you?

Ryal Kane

 

[All4one]

I agree with your post ec... Yet because of so many liberal "I have that right" views today we find Marjuana illegal but ok to promote in songs, magazines, and on popular apperal. It is yet the same with prostitution which contradicts itself in the dirty magazines, movies and things where wemon sell their bodies... Abortion is just one of these topics that that mounts confussion in todays world. Is it right or wrong? Read my message concerning this under all my posts. I addressed the question of actual abortion. I agree with you though that we should take lives to save lives.

In Love,
All4one