Muhammad (pbuh), the Last Prophet

Islam_mulia · Jun 5, 2007

BruceDLimber said:
Greetings!

In fact, this whole "last prophet" thing is based on a misunderstanding!

There are several different explanations of the verse in the Quran saying Muhammad is the Seal of the Prophets (a statement we Bahais accept):

First off, there is a sense in which EVERY Divine Messenger is the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, and the Seal!

More specifically, there are multiple Arabic words that all translate into English as "prophet."

One of these is "nabi," which refers to a minor prophet such as Jeremiah or Amos.

Another is Ras'ul, which means a major, religion-founding Divine Messenger like Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, or Baha'u'llah (our Founder). (And yes, Muhammad was a major--not a minor--Prophet.)

And the word actually used in the Qur'an is "nabi," meaning Muhammad was the Seal of the minor prophets! This says nothing whatever about the great Divine Messengers.

Muhammad is also the Seal in the sense that He was the last Messenger during the Prophetic Age, which began with Adam and ended with Him. The Bab then closed out that Age and opened the Age of Fulfillment, of which Baha'u'llah is the first major Messenger.

Finally, there is a sense in which the word commonly translated as "seal" also means "ornament," so that this verse of the Qur'an may simply be saying that Muhammad is the Ornament of the prophets! (Nothing whatever about any sort of finish.)

Peace,

Bruce

We had quite a discussion on the Bahai prophets at http://www.christianforums.com/t5085453&page=14

1. For those who wants to know about the history of the Bahai faith, you can browse the link above. You would find the violence, political backstabbing, power grabbing individuals among the high profile Bahai leaders.

2. The Bahai 'prophets', the Bab (whom the Bahai eventually downgraded and silenced to praise Bahaullah) and Bahaullah had a different idea regarding 'nabi' (prophet) and 'rasul' (messenger).

Modern day Bahai tried to twist the words of the Quran to suggest that Muhammad (pbuh) was the last 'nabi' (prophet) but not the last 'rasul' (messenger).

However, their own book, written by Bahaullah, their prophet, disputed their idea when their prophets claimed :

Glorified art Thou, O Lord my God! I beseech Thee by Thy Chosen Ones, and by the Bearers of Thy Trust, and by Him Whom Thou hast ordained to be the Seal of Thy Prophets and of Thy Messengers, to let Thy remembrance be my companion, and Thy love my aim, and Thy face my goal, and Thy name my lamp, and Thy wish my desire, and Thy pleasure my delight.
http://bahai-library.org/compilations/prayers/bp.html

See also Baha'ullah's claim that Muhammad (pbuh) is the last nabi and rasul:

Salutations and peace be upon the Lord of mankind, the educator of the nations, He, through whom messengership [risálat] and prophethood [nubuwwat] have been consummated [intahat].
(Bahá'u'lláh, Ishráqát 293, provisional translation)

français · Jun 5, 2007

islam mulia - this isn't a muslim/Baha'i debate. if you want to stir trouble, please do it elsewhere.

Snowbunny · Jun 5, 2007

evidently we are still not ready to have these kinds of conversations with each other... lets close the thread before it turns into another flame war.

Islam_mulia · Jun 5, 2007

kjf512 said:
islam mulia - this isn't a muslim/Baha'i debate. if you want to stir trouble, please do it elsewhere.

I am not sure how you define 'debate'. Nevertheless, I was trying to point to the error made by some Bahai in twisting the Quran to validate the prophethood of Bahaullah and the Bab.

Kat3 · Jun 5, 2007

Janissary said:
It surprises me that the idea of finite revelation is foreign to you. Wasn't Christianity completed by the work of the apostles? You might not call it an end to revelation, but you aren't expecting any more prophets, are you?

Abraham, actually.

When did Abraham build it?

LittleLambofJesus · Jun 5, 2007

Islam_mulia said:
I am not sure how you define 'debate'. Nevertheless, I was trying to point to the error made by some Bahai in twisting the Quran to validate the prophethood of Bahaullah and the Bab.

How is that any different than Muslims trying to twist our Scriptures to validate Muhammad.

1 Peter 4:7 Of all all things/pantwn The/to <3588> End/teloV <5056> hath Come Nigh/hggiken <1448>; be sober-minded, then, and watch unto the prayers,

Luke 21:9 and when YE may hear of wars and uprisings, be not terrified, for it behoveth these things to happen first, but The/to <3588> End/teloV <5056> [is] not immediately.' 27 `And then they shall see the Son of Man, coming in a cloud, with power and much glory; 28 and these things beginning to happen bend Yourselves back, and lift up your heads, because Your Redemption doth Draw Nigh/eggizei <1448>.'

anatolian · Jun 6, 2007

Renton405 said:
Theres a moral issue you forget to list.. No one can consciously look at a 6 year old and think marriage without guilt.. God has put that into our minds..

God given instinct.. I think Muslims have a word for that actually..

the point is very simple,we believe God told the Prophet to mary to Aisha and you dont believe this because you dont believe Muhammed-aleyissalam-is a prophet to get any revelation from God...do you understand?

Renton405 · Jun 6, 2007

anatolian said:
the point is very simple,we believe God told the Prophet to mary to Aisha and you dont believe this because you dont believe Muhammed-aleyissalam-is a prophet to get any revelation from God...do you understand?

By the fruits ye shall know them

The fruits of Mohammed do not show him to be a prophet... Quite the opposite.. the OT prophets teachings contradict him..

The prophets ended after John the Baptist.. the bible declares this..

Islam_mulia · Jun 6, 2007

Renton405 said:
By the fruits ye shall know them

The fruits of Mohammed do not show him to be a prophet... Quite the opposite.. the OT prophets teachings contradict him..

How do the OT prophets teachings contradict Muhammad(pbuh)? So far, Islam is quite consistent with some of the major belief of the prophets.

I see the teachings of Christianity that totally is against the major belief of the Jews.

Renton405 said:
The prophets ended after John the Baptist.. the bible declares this..

Where does it show that? Pls quote the bible. If that is true, can we say that Paul was a false prophet?

peaceful soul · Jun 6, 2007

anatolian said:
the point is very simple,we believe God told the Prophet to mary to Aisha and you dont believe this because you dont believe Muhammed-aleyissalam-is a prophet to get any revelation from God...do you understand?

Actually that is not why we don't believe it. It contradicts all good things that Jesus, the Christ, taught us. It also goes against our human rationale to believe that revelation goes backwards and cancels previous revelations without any reasonable evidence other than Mohammad said that Allah said it; therefore, it is true. Moreover,, in previous prophetic revelations, there was always more than one way to confirm what a prophet said. The people did not just take the prophet's word for it. God left them a way to discern and verify the messages themselves. Mohammad made a claim, and who could contest it? No one else could challenge Mohammad because Allah did not speak to anyone but him.

Renton405 · Jun 6, 2007

Islam_mulia said:
How do the OT prophets teachings contradict Muhammad(pbuh)? So far, Islam is quite consistent with some of the major belief of the prophets.

I see the teachings of Christianity that totally is against the major belief of the Jews.

Where does it show that? Pls quote the bible. If that is true, can we say that Paul was a false prophet?

Paul never declared himself a prophet.. he was an apostle who preached..

The Jews dont believe in the Messiah.. so thats where it splits.. and they refuse to look at the prophecys pertaining to Jesus in the OT.. So the Christians are the ones who really follow the whole bible..

No Islam is not at all consistant with the OT prophets.. For instance the "prophet" who repremanded Moses 3 times.. or the Rock that ran off with his clothes.. I mean come on..

or when Mohammed copys from the gnostic apocrypha that says Jesus changed the clay to birds and spoke from his cradle.. That is so obvious..

Read the end of the book of Revelation..

This here itself denys Mohammed being a prophet:

1 John 2: 22 Who is a liar at all, if not the person who denies that Jesus is the Christ? Such a person is an Anti-Christ - he is denying the Father and the Son.

92. For it is not consonant with the majesty of GOD((Allah)) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.

[4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (The Noble Quran, 112:1-4)"

"They say: 'God hath begotten a son' :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him. (The Noble Quran, 2:116)"

Futuwwa · Jun 6, 2007

Snowbunny said:
evidently we are still not ready to have these kinds of conversations with each other... lets close the thread before it turns into another flame war.

Please, do not say that. Our discussion is highly intriguing compared to the hack and slash of arguing with some of the polemical pitbulls over here.

BruceDLimber · Jun 6, 2007

And for those wanting an HONEST description of the Baha'i Faith, as contrasted with the anti-Baha'i site and biased attacks Islammulia posted, I commend to you:

www.bahai.org

and

www.bahai.us

You can also find unbiased articles in places like the Encyclopedia Britannica.

And I wish you good hunting!

Bruce

Snowbunny · Jun 6, 2007

gracias BruceDLimber

do you know about any major bahai webforums or anything? i like to read and then ask questions... i have been very curious about bahai because of the way the posters here are always so patient, forgiving and optimistic about people... i do not think it is a coincidence

que Dios te bendiga

Snowbunny · Jun 6, 2007

Renton405 said:
By the fruits ye shall know them

The fruits of Mohammed do not show him to be a prophet... Quite the opposite.. the OT prophets teachings contradict him..

The prophets ended after John the Baptist.. the bible declares this..

hola Renton,

Catholic doctrine teaches that there is no new public revelation after the death of the last apostle, so Jesus is the last prophet... do not forget that we believe Jesus was King, Prophet and High Priest as part of his human nature. sometimes in talking to those who reject Jesus' hypostatic union we can over emphasize his divine nature and completely reject his human nature... that is not allowed, it is docetism which is heresy.

Dominus tecum

français · Jun 6, 2007

jayda - the most active Baha'i forum is

>>http://bahai-library.com/forum/index.php

it's a really great place

TrevorKamal · Jun 6, 2007

Janissary said:
Huh? Why are you asking for independent evidence? Revelation being finite is one of the basic postulates of Islam; to understand Islam, you need to view it through its own worldview if you want to find consistency.

Ok, but where does it come from? Is there something in the Qur'an that talks about all revelation being finite? If so could you point me to it?

Janissary said:
It surprises me that the idea of finite revelation is foreign to you. Wasn't Christianity completed by the work of the apostles? You might not call it an end to revelation, but you aren't expecting any more prophets, are you?

Why not?

Islam_mulia · Jun 6, 2007

TrevorKamal said:
Ok, but where does it come from? Is there something in the Qur'an that talks about all revelation being finite? If so could you point me to it?
Why not?

Sorry to butt in, but I thought I have explained to Trevor Kamal and the other Bahais regarding the Islamic POV on the end of prophecy.

Here I repeat them:

The Quran states:

This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;
Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.
(Surah al-Baqarah 2:1-4)

The wonderful verses above did not say any revelation (or ipso facto another Messenger) will come after Muhammad (pbuh), but that only those who believe in the revelations sent to Muhammad (pbuh) and the earlier prophets and do good deeds will be saved.

This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. (Surah Al-Maeda 5:3)

It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, that he may proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).
(Surah As-Saff 61:9)

God said He had provided a perfect religion (Islam) than will prevail over all '-ism'. If you believe in the Quran, and Bahais believe the Quran is from God, then you should beware of 'prophets' who came after Islam.

'Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets.' (Surah Ahzab, verse 40)

Even Bahaullah agrees that Muhammad (pbuh) was the last nabi and rasul. See my post earlier. No bahai has disagreed on the writings of Bahaullah.

Hope that helps.

Sorry, Janissary.... back to you.

TrevorKamal · Jun 6, 2007

Islam_mulia said:
Sorry to butt in, but I thought I have explained to Trevor Kamal and the other Bahais regarding the Islamic POV on the end of prophecy.

Actually, I'm not a Baha'i but I know a lot about them and have great respect for them.

Islam_mulia said:
Here I repeat them:

The Quran states:

This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;
Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.
(Surah al-Baqarah 2:1-4)

The wonderful verses above did not say any revelation (or ipso facto another Messenger) will come after Muhammad (pbuh), but that only those who believe in the revelations sent to Muhammad (pbuh) and the earlier prophets and do good deeds will be saved.

I don't understand why the lack of any mention of future prophets means that there are definitely none coming. If I told you that the mail came today would you automatically assume that it was the last of the mail just because I failed to mention that more would come tomorrow?

Islam_mulia said:
This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. (Surah Al-Maeda 5:3)

It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, that he may proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).
(Surah As-Saff 61:9)

God said He had provided a perfect religion (Islam) than will prevail over all '-ism'. If you believe in the Quran, and Bahais believe the Quran is from God, then you should beware of 'prophets' who came after Islam.

But it WAS perfected for "them". No Baha'i would disagree with that. "Them" being the people of the Arabian peninsula in the seventh century (and then some). It was the cure for the disease that plagued their society. That doesn't mean that the same cure would work for all societies of all times and conditions. This is precisely the reason the Qur'an was not revealed before it was.

Islam_mulia said:
'Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets.' (Surah Ahzab, verse 40)'

Even Bahaullah agrees that Muhammad (pbuh) was the last nabi and rasul. See my post earlier. No bahai has disagreed on the writings of Bahaullah.

The problem here is in your paraphrasing what Baha'u'llah said and therefore putting your own spin on it. Obviously if Baha'u'llah confirms that the Qur'an is revealed by God then He also confirms what is written in it. It's your interpretation of that verse that differs from what Baha'u'llah says.

Oxy2Hydr0 · Jun 6, 2007

Janissary said:
Please, do not say that. Our discussion is highly intriguing compared to the hack and slash of arguing with some of the polemical pitbulls over here.

LOL......

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