Movie

clinzey · Mar 22, 2004

BrightCandle said:
The most glaring heresy of The Passion is the prominent role that Mary plays throughout the film as a partner with Christ in the redemption of mankind.

I'm also Protestant, but I think you're overplaying the role of Mary in the movie. The movie does give her more prominance than the gospel narratives, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that the movie says she is co-redeemer.

...in the movie Mary is present in all the major episodes. She is dressed like a Medieval nun, rather than a first-century Jewish woman. She is present in the Garden to comfort her Son.

Have you even seen the movie? Mary isn't introduced until after Jesus has been arrested and taken from the garden

ty597 · Mar 22, 2004

I believe that the movie for the most part is correct. They did throw in a little bit of movie-makeover that the bible does not mention. I think that the movie could get people thinking and maybe go to somebody that could help them go that extra mile to accepting Christ into their lives.

thereselittleflower · Mar 22, 2004

clinzey said:
I'm also Protestant, but I think you're overplaying the role of Mary in the movie. The movie does give her more prominance than the gospel narratives, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that the movie says she is co-redeemer.

Have you even seen the movie? Mary isn't introduced until after Jesus has been arrested and taken from the garden

Clinzey

I don't think brightcandle has seen the movie. . I think he is merely parroting what he has heard other misinformed people saying. .

Anyone who sees the movie could never make such an error as to mistake Satan in the Garden for Mary . .

Peace in Him!

thereselittleflower · Mar 22, 2004

clinzey said:
Okay, your explanation helps clear things up, but the example you gave about Communion is found in scripture. What is part of sacred tradition that is not included in scripture?

*I'm not being argumentative, simply asking for information.

hi Clinzey It is fine to ask for information. I am glad you are. And I am glad my explanation has helped clear some of this up for you.

And yes, the scriptures do speak about communion both when Christ instituted it, as well as when Paul tries to correct abuses of it. But is there enough in scripture to present to everyone clearly exactly what the Eucharist is? Today, we have several different ideas about it within Christianity . .the Catholic and Orthodox say it is the Real Presence of our Lord on the altar, Some Lutheran's believe it is to be this as well. Others see it as a mere symbol, no more . .

All argue their points from scripture, and personally I feel the scriptures are very, very clear about the Eucharist being the body and blood of our Lord and describe the Real Presence spoken of by Catholics and Orthodox.

But Sacred Tradition, in which the Real Presence has always been taught being handed down from the Apostles, is very clear about this, and reveals the right interpretation of scriptures regarding the Eucharist.

Another is the ordination of clergy, or ordaining Bishops, etc . . the New Testament tells us a little about them, and that they are to be ordained, but not at all clearly how. The details of this were handed down by the Apostles orally which make up part Christian Sacred Tradition (some of this is ecclesial as well (such as what garments are worn, etc) so I don't want to confuse you by mixing the two up).

Does this help?

Peace in Him!

Glynnw · Mar 22, 2004

TY597, I think you are right that the movie may move some people toward God. Example, a lady went to the movie with my mother-in-law an she was so moved she went home and called a lady she had had a disagreement 10 years ago and had not spoke to her since. I also read yesterday that a man saw the movie and afterwards turned himself in to the police. Seems he had robbed a bank 2 years ago and could not bear the guilt and this movie pushed him to do the right thing. Yes, it is a very moving movie and still is affecting me after 3 weeks. The spokesman for the Catholic church in New Orleans thought it was a wonderful movie that would affect and move a lot of people but was afraid that the effect would not hold up. Well, as far as I can see it seems so far so good. I just pray that everyone moved by this movie will move closer to God. Pray for Peace on earth, Glynnw

Benedicta00 · Mar 22, 2004

Glynnw said:
TY597, I think you are right that the movie may move some people toward God. Example, a lady went to the movie with my mother-in-law an she was so moved she went home and called a lady she had had a disagreement 10 years ago and had not spoke to her since. I also read yesterday that a man saw the movie and afterwards turned himself in to the police. Seems he had robbed a bank 2 years ago and could not bear the guilt and this movie pushed him to do the right thing. Yes, it is a very moving movie and still is affecting me after 3 weeks. The spokesman for the Catholic church in New Orleans thought it was a wonderful movie that would affect and move a lot of people but was afraid that the effect would not hold up. Well, as far as I can see it seems so far so good. I just pray that everyone moved by this movie will move closer to God. Pray for Peace on earth, Glynnw

Are you from New Orleans? The spokes person said that he hopes the effects would hold up, I do not recall hearing him say he didn't think they would.

But that is a beautiful conversion story, thanks.

Benedicta00 · Mar 22, 2004

Symes said:
The temple was not destroyed until AD 70.

It was not destroyed when Christ died.

The curtain was ripped from top to bottom.

The temple was left standing at this time.

And the movie does not portray anything to the contrary. In the movie the earth quaked and the rocks split, just like it says in Matt.

Brooks,

The verse says that the earth quaked and the rocks split, if you think it means something else then I guess it is just gonna have to be your personal interpretation against Gibson's. Since his interpretation does not contradict 2000 years of Christian belief, and your more or less does, Im going with his.

Symes · Mar 22, 2004

Another error in the Movie.

"Gethsemane

The movie opens with Christ praying in the Garden of Gethsemane. Both the garden and Jesus look awful. The garden looks like an abandoned field in southern Italy, with dry high grass and without the millenarian olive trees that are so characteristic of the Garden of Gethsemane in Jerusalem.

Jesus looks frightening, covered with mud or grease over his hair and face. He looks as if He just came out of a mud pit, rather than from agonizing prayer. . Why should Christ look so dirty and greasy when He had just finished eating the Passover meal with His disciples? The Gospels tell that three times Jesus fell on His face and prayed to His Father if it were possible to let the cup of suffering pass from Him, but such prayer could hardly have made His clothings look so dirty. It is evident that Gibson wants to make Christ look shocking from the beginning to the end of the movie. Such pictures promotes the Catholic devotion to the Passion as a way of salvation.

As soon as the soldiers and priests capture Christ in the Garden, they bound Him with a heavy duty chain suitable for anchoring sea vessels, and start beating on Him. But in the Gospels there is no reference to the beating of Jesus in the Garden. We are simply told: ÒAnd they laid hands on him and seized him. . . . And they led Jesus to the high priest; and all the chief priests and elders were assembledÓ (Mark 14:46, 53; cf. Matt 26:50, 57). ÒThen they seized him and led him away, bringing him into the high priest houseÓ (Luke 22:54; cf. John 18:12-13). What in the Gospels is presented as a simple arrest and escort of Jesus to the high priestÕs house, in the movie becomes a plot to lynch Jesus even before he gets a chance to appear before the high priest.

While Jesus is tortured in Gethsemane, Mary awakens in her home and says: ÒWhat makes this night different from other nights?Ða reference to the Jewish Passover liturgy. This detail is found in The Dolorous Passion, but not in the Bible."

thereselittleflower · Mar 22, 2004

Symes, I have said this before and will say it again . . you have not yet seen the movie . . you are buying into lies amd misrepresentations . .

Jesus covered with mud? Where did that come from? I have seen the movie twice and never ever came away with that impression . .. sorry . . but really, just go see the movie so you can see for yourself what lies you are being fed . .

The Catholic devotion to the passion is a way of salvation? Symes . . i really, really feel sorry for you . . you have bought into so many lies that you can't see what is true from what is falsehood.

Devotion to the Pssion of Christ is not a requirement for savlation . . it is a devotion of personal piety . . do you know what the difference is?

The parts of the movie you are criticizing do not in any way contradict what the bible says . . putting in something not directly spoken of in the bible is not a contradiction . . . putting Jesus somewhere other than in the Garden of Gesthemene would have been .. .

And the phrase that Mary says is part of the Traditional Passover ritual . . so Mel Gibson incorporated it there to show us how very Jewish they were and how very related to the Passover this all really was . . .

<sigh>

Peace in Him!

BrightCandle · Mar 22, 2004

Shelb5 said:
Brooks,
The verse says that the earth quaked and the rocks split, if you think it means something else then I guess it is just gonna have to be your personal interpretation against Gibson's. Since his interpretation does not contradict 2000 years of Christian belief, and your more or less does, Im going with his.

There is no 2,000 year tradition of a tear falling from God the Father on the temple like a bomb, splitting the temple. That is pure mystical theology, not Scripture.

And I have not seen the whole movie, but I have viewed all of the movie trailers online, and read many reviews, to realize that I do not want to see the full length movie, and subject myself to the brutality and obvious Roman Catholic mystical writings that have influenced Mel Gibson's portrayal of the final days of Jesus' life.

Brooks

Benedicta00 · Mar 22, 2004

BrightCandle said:
There is no 2,000 year tradition of a tear falling from God the Father on the temple like a bomb, splitting the temple. That is pure mystical theology, not Scripture.

It was symbolism Brooks. What truth is it denying? The temple in the movie was not destroyed. I dont now where you are getting this from.

I don't recall the tears being the thing that split the temple in the movie, I could be wrong but going by memory I thought it just started the rains and then the earth quaked which then the vail tore.

And I have not seen the whole movie, but I have viewed all of the movie trailers online, and read many reviews, to realize that I do not want to see the full length movie, and subject myself to the brutality and obvious Roman Catholic mystical writings that have influenced Mel Gibson's portrayal of the final days of Jesus' life.

Brooks

Your loss dude. Your contempt for the Church is causing you to miss out.

Benedicta00 · Mar 22, 2004

Symes said:
Another error in the Movie.

"Gethsemane

The movie opens with Christ praying in the Garden of Gethsemane. Both the garden and Jesus look awful. The garden looks like an abandoned field in southern Italy, with dry high grass and without the millenarian olive trees that are so characteristic of the Garden of Gethsemane in Jerusalem.

So what? I did not really pay that much attention to the background of the set, I was paying attention to Jesus. If they left out olive trees does that really mean the seance is unbiblical?

Jesus looks frightening, covered with mud or grease over his hair and face. He looks as if He just came out of a mud pit, rather than from agonizing prayer. .

NO. Not true. Jesus was in agony the bible says he was, he sweet blood, the bible said he did, this is what was in the movie. "My soul is sorrowful unto death." They don't call it agony in the garden for nothing.

Why should Christ look so dirty and greasy when He had just finished eating the Passover meal with His disciples?

He didn't, the grease and mud was him sweating of blood.

The Gospels tell that three times Jesus fell on His face and prayed to His Father if it were possible to let the cup of suffering pass from Him, but such prayer could hardly have made His clothings look so dirty.

He did do that in the movie, and it was blood.

It is evident that Gibson wants to make Christ look shocking from the beginning to the end of the movie. Such pictures promotes the Catholic devotion to the Passion as a way of salvation.

Do you think his death was a "clean" event?

As soon as the soldiers and priests capture Christ in the Garden, they bound Him with a heavy duty chain suitable for anchoring sea vessels, and start beating on Him. But in the Gospels there is no reference to the beating of Jesus in the Garden. We are simply told: ÒAnd they laid hands on him and seized him. . . . And they led Jesus to the high priest; and all the chief priests and elders were assembledÓ (Mark 14:46, 53; cf. Matt 26:50, 57). ÒThen they seized him and led him away, bringing him into the high priest houseÓ (Luke 22:54; cf. John 18:12-13). What in the Gospels is presented as a simple arrest and escort of Jesus to the high priestÕs house, in the movie becomes a plot to lynch Jesus even before he gets a chance to appear before the high priest.

Again, so? You don't think it is proper to mediate on what it must have been like?

While Jesus is tortured in Gethsemane, Mary awakens in her home and says: ÒWhat makes this night different from other nights?Ða reference to the Jewish Passover liturgy. This detail is found in The Dolorous Passion, but not in the Bible."

So? No one claims this movie is the bible verbatim. Did you take issue with The Ten Commandments by any chance? They did not do the movie verbatim from the bible either. Its a movie and I can not understand why you would expect something different from that. Movies tell stories, and this one told this story and the telling of the story was very accurate.

Glynnw · Mar 23, 2004

Shelb5 said:
Are you from New Orleans? The spokes person said that he hopes the effects would hold up, I do not recall hearing him say he didn't think they would.

But that is a beautiful conversion story, thanks.

Yes, I am from New Orleans and watched his interview on tv. What I should have said is that he hopes the effect will hold up over a period of time. Thanks for pointing that out. I intend on going back to see the Passion of the Christ over the Easter weekend. I still cannot believe that a movie has affected me so much and I'm glad it is affecting other people in a positive way. I see a lot of post about different scenes in the movie. If you have not seen the book that goes along with the movie, we purchased the book Passion of the Christ by Mel Gibson and have found it most helpful since it has the Quotes from the Bible and exact verse listing that he used to back up the scene. The pictures were great and seemed to bring me back to the movie. In Christ, Glynnw

clinzey · Mar 23, 2004

BrightCandle said:
And I have not seen the whole movie, but I have viewed all of the movie trailers online, and read many reviews...

Then this is probably not the right thread for you to post in. How can you rightfully criticize any movie without ever seeing it? You opinion are based on other opinions (who didn't see the movie either). Look, man, I'm a Protestant, and I could see Catholic influences in the film, but there was nothing in there so offensive to Protestants that we can't go and see Gibson's portrayal of the last 12 hours of Jesus.

clinzey · Mar 23, 2004

thereselittleflower said:
hi Clinzey It is fine to ask for information. I am glad you are. And I am glad my explanation has helped clear some of this up for you.

Therese, I would very much like to continue this conversation. To keep from sidetracking the thread, do you mind if I start it under a new one?

thereselittleflower · Mar 23, 2004

clinzey said:
Therese, I would very much like to continue this conversation. To keep from sidetracking the thread, do you mind if I start it under a new one?

Not at all . . just let me know where it is . . if you would like, you can start it in OBOB too . .

Peace in Him!

thereselittleflower · Mar 23, 2004

BrightCandle said:
There is no 2,000 year tradition of a tear falling from God the Father on the temple like a bomb, splitting the temple. That is pure mystical theology, not Scripture.

And I have not seen the whole movie, but I have viewed all of the movie trailers online, and read many reviews, to realize that I do not want to see the full length movie, and subject myself to the brutality and obvious Roman Catholic mystical writings that have influenced Mel Gibson's portrayal of the final days of Jesus' life.

Brooks

Birghtcandle, there is nothing in the movie that shows a tear falling on the temple splitting it like a bomb . .

You seriously believe you can know exactly what is in a movie from trailers? You expect us to believe you can justly criticize a move just from the trailers?

Do you realize that in making trailers, it is common to put different scenes together, and that if someone relies on the trailer they can come away from it with an impression that is 180 degrees in the wrong direction?

Go see the movie . . then tell us what you think. . . until then, your credibility on the matter is shot . .

Peace in Him!

thereselittleflower · Mar 23, 2004

Shelb5 said:
It was symbolism Brooks. What truth is it denying? The temple in the movie was not destroyed. I dont now where you are getting this from.

I don't recall the tears being the thing that split the temple in the movie, I could be wrong but going by memory I thought it just started the rains and then the earth quaked which then the vail tore.

The "tear" was a rain drop that falls on the ground next to Christ on calvary. It is the first of many that turn into a torrent. Then the ground quakes, then we see the FLOOR split in the room where the veil is torn. . .

We don't see the temple being destroyed. . . Mel used dramatic visual effects to get a point across . . IT IS FINISHED!

Peace in Him!

Your loss dude. Your contempt for the Church is causing you to miss out.

very sadly true. ..

Peace in Him!

Glynnw · Mar 23, 2004

Hi, I plan on seeing the Passion again on Easter weekend. It has done so much for me the first time no telling what a second visit will do. I have never read the Bible so much checking out verse that backs up scenes. I invite everyone to join me. I understand Mel Gibson plans on rereleasing the Passion next Easter and it will probably make over 1 billion dollars. It's not so much the money but the souls that have and will see it. God does work in strange ways. Peace In Him, GlynnW

clinzey · Mar 23, 2004

thereselittleflower said:
The "tear" was a rain drop that falls on the ground next to Christ on calvary. It is the first of many that turn into a torrent. Then the ground quakes, then we see the FLOOR split in the room where the veil is torn. . .

You know, for the longest time I thought he was talking about tears like "one tears one's pants if your butt is too big." He meant like the kind you cry. Dude, Therese is right (have I ever said that, Therese? ), the tear is a drop of rain. Every storm has to have 1 drop hit first, right? That's all Gibson was showing.

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