(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

A_Thinker · Sep 9, 2017

twinserk said:
A_Thinker said:

I think that you are just getting some of the details wrong.

Jesus fulfilled the Law, ... we have no part in that ...

twinserk said: Heaven and Earth haven't passed away, and we are instructed to walk just as He did.

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Jesus fulfilled the Law by giving His life to pay for our violations of the Law.

It is finished.

There is nothing left for us to do in regard to the Law.

We now walk in Grace and the Spirit ...

DamianWarS · Sep 9, 2017

Devin P said:
The product of a fulfilled law, was our savior. He fulfilled the law, and removed from us, the penalty of the breaking of the law. The curse, He did away with. We can now obey the law, without the fear of the curse, although if we willingly break the law, there will be punishment for it, which is why we should desire to obey. Not that we will necessarily go to the lake of fire if we don't obey, but even if we do make it in based on faith alone, we'll be called the least in the kingdom. Definitely not something I want to aim for - barely making the cut.

what is the law?

RDKirk · Sep 9, 2017

DamianWarS said:
what is the law?

I asked that question. Didn't get an answer.

stuart lawrence · Sep 9, 2017

There was much discussion in Acts ch15 as to which Jewish laws gentile converts be asked to follow. No mention of the TC, of which: thou shalt not murder is one. Why were they not mentiuoned???

Were they also to be gradually phased in over time??? According to some people's view
So until they were phased in gentiles could murder, commit adultery, steal,take the Lord's name in vain etc. Doesn't right to me
But then there is a glaring reason the TC were not mentioned.

Noxot · Sep 9, 2017

Soyeong said:
The Jews do not have a history of killing someone every time the Law prescribed it, but very often imposed a fine instead. The harshness of the penalty was to show the seriousness of the offense to God, while the lighter penalty was to show the mercy of God. As Jesus said in Matthew 23:23, justice, mercy, and faith are weightier matters of the Law, so if mercy is not reflected in how we obey the Law, then we are not obeying it correctly. God's is always merciful to those who seek it, but as with the parable of the unmerciful servant in Matthew 18:21-35, God's mercy comes with the expectation that our behavior will change or else the full penalty can be reinstated. In other words, God shows His mercy to us by giving us time to repent. As always, God is primarily concerned with where our heart is at, and the reason the person was executed in Numbers 15:32-36 had very little to do with picking up sticks in itself and had everything to do with the condition of his heart and his relationship with God. Keep the Sabbath is very important to God throughout the Bible so much so that it carries the death penalty for breaking, but again the purpose of resting on the Sabbath is to have time to spend growing in our relationship with God and to place our faith in Him to provide for us. Furthermore, making a covenant involved cutting an animal in two and saying that they would become like that animal if they broke the covenant (Genesis 15:10, Jeremiah 34:18), so breaking a covenant was a very serious offense that carried the death penalty. So it is a mistake to focus on picking up the sticks when it was far deeper issue.

there are probably millions upon millions of christians that don't keep the Sabbath. lets throw stones at them til they die or fine them with a fee so that they know that God is love. or do you wanna cut some people in half? or do we leave that to Gods angels now?

how do you live with yourself knowing such afflictions upon people is God-approved? I can't stand when someone gets their fingers crushed off by a machine, let alone cut in half.

Soyeong · Sep 9, 2017

A_Thinker said:
For those who do not believe that God's methodology ever changes, ... how do you interpret the following OT passage ...

Isaiah 43

18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.

19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

... and this NT passage, from Hebrews 8 ...

6 But now Jesus has obtained a superior ministry, since the covenant that he mediates is also better and is enacted on better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, no one would have looked for a second one.

8 But showing its fault, God says to them, “Look, the days are coming, says the Lord,when I will complete a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

9 “It will not be like the covenant that I made with their fathers,on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not continue in my covenant and I had no regard for them, says the Lord.

10 “For this is the covenant that I will establish with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and I will inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God and they will be my people.

11 “And there will be no need at all for each one to teach his countryman or each one to teach his brother saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ since they will all know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 “For I will be merciful toward their evil deeds, and their sins I will remember no longer.”

13 When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.

When the Bible says that God does not change, it is speaking about His eternal attributes, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control. So the way to act in accordance with those attributes does not change, meaning that something that God reveals to be righteous, such as helping the poor, has always been and will alway be righteous. So anyone who wanted to find out how to do what is righteous can do so by reading God's instructions for that in the Mosaic Law regardless of which covenant, if any they are under, but as part of the New Covenant, we are still told to do what is righteous in accordance with Messiah's example, which was in obedience to the Mosaic Law. When the Bible says God does not change, it is not saying that God never does anything that He has never done before.

stuart lawrence · Sep 9, 2017

A_Thinker said:
And so, it is likely that he is refering to his condition ... before his new birth ? For ... he wouldn't be a slave to sin ... under Grace ...

Thank-you, my brother.

You are helping, temendously, with my understanding of Romans chapter 7 ...

Yes, that is the way I see it.
Thank you for your encouraging words.
God bless

GingerBeer · Sep 9, 2017

Soyeong said:
While we are under a New Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God, whose righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), and whose righteous laws are all therefore eternal (Psalms 119:160).

Okay, then you best get on with building a temple in Jerusalem, find some descendants of Aaron to be your priests, and offer sheep, goats, and bulls as sacrifices in the temple. Until you manage that you won't be keeping the eternal laws will you?

AnticipateHisComing · Sep 9, 2017

Devin P said:
The law was never done away with, because it's displaying the Character of God.

AnticipateHisComing said:
True, the eternal law is the one discovered by Adam and Eve when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

DamianWarS said:
what is the law?

The OP makes some incorrect assumptions about the Law and it needs to be clarified what laws need to be observed today. Everyone is obsessed over Matthew 5:18 and every stroke and smallest letter of the Law. They assume the Law to be everything written by Moses and the prophets. But don't incorrectly assume what the Law is when Jesus tells us exactly what it is.

Matthew 5:19 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven,

Now read Matthew 5,6 and 7 to see that Jesus teaches these commands:
Don't murder or even be angry.
Don't commit adultery or even look lustfully.
Don't brake an oath or don't even swear by heaven.
Don't repay an eye for an eye, but turn the other cheek.
Don't just love your neighbor, love even your enemies.
Give in secret to the needy.
Pray the Lord's prayer.
When you fast, do so secretly.
Store treasures in heaven.
Don't worry.
Don't judge others.

Further read what Jesus said is the greatest commandment.

Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Lastly remember the great commission.
Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.

So some old laws that don't fit with what Jesus taught are no longer required to be followed.

Matthew 12:12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

Soyeong · Sep 9, 2017

Lee Stuvmen said:
Until one understands what THE LAW WAS/IS, how can one understand Jesus' words?

So WHAT IS the LAW Jesus spoke of?

There were TWO LAWS at the time Jesus walked upon the earth.

The FIRST LAW was written by the finger of God.

The LETTER of the Law was
THOU SHALT NOT kill.

The SPIRIT of the Law was;
LOVE

IF you LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR would you;
KILL THEM
BEAR FALSE WITNESS against them
STEAL from them.

We are told in Scripture that GOD IS LOVE.

What would be the LAW in a Kingdom ruled by LOVE?

To love?

THIS LAW Jesus fulfilled!
John 13:1
Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

The SECOND LAW was written by the hand of Moses.

The SECOND LAW did not offer grace, but ONLY CONDEMNATION if the FIRST LAW was broken.

Galatians 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized all of the Law and the Prophets as being about how to love God and our neighbor, not just those commands that were written by God. It really makes no difference whether something was directly commanded by God or indirectly commanded by God through a mediator, both come with the authority of God and both are intended to teach us spiritual principles of how live in the image of God by reflecting His attributes to the world, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control. So love fulfills the Mosaic Law because that is what it is essentially about how to do.

So here is the choice;
Live by the SPIRIT OF THE LAW AND LOVE

Click to expand...

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Romans 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:10
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The distinction between the spirit of the law and the letter of the law is reflected in modern discussions about law enforcement and is not in regard to whether or not we obey the law or which laws to follow, but in regard to the manner in which we obey it, with respect to exactly how it is written according to the letter, or according to the intent or spirit behind the law. As you pointed point out with the spiritual principle of love, if we correctly understand that principle, then it will lead us to do things that the Mosaic Law instructs, so obeying the Law according to the spirit involves obeying what it instructs us to do according to its intent. Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his teachings, which are not his own, but that of the Father (John 14:23-24), and that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law (Matthew 23:23), so the intent of the Mosaic Law is to teach us how to grow in an intimate relationship with Christ based on love and faith. The goal of the Law is a relationship with Christ for righteousness for everyone who has faith (Romans 10:4).

Or DIE under MOSAIC LAW

Click to expand...

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Have you broken just one mosaic law?

All must answer yes.

What sense is there attempting to keep a law that you have already broken
and therefore now stand guilty before God?

Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

In James 2:1-10, he was not trying to warn them away from trying to obey the Mosaic Law, but rather he was trying to encourage them not to show favoritism and to do a better job of obeying the Law more consistently. When we break any law, we become a lawbreaker and the consequence of that is that we need to repent and turn back to obedience. It is an absurd position that it is worse to seek to obey God's commands and fail to do so perfectly than to live in complete disregard for His commands.

Romans 5:20
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

So choose wisely;

Mosaic Law, or
Christ's Grace

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

It is important to be careful to correctly identify which law is being talked about because Romans 5:20 and Galatians 5:4 are speaking about different laws, neither of which is the Mosaic Law. There is no definitive article in the Greek, so the phrase "works of the law" is literally translated as "works of law", which means that it does not refer to definitive set of laws, such as the Mosaic Law, but rather Paul used it as a catch-all phrase to refer to a large body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, rulings, fences, that that some Jews were wanting to require Gentiles to obey in order to become saved. This phrase is also used this way in the Qumran Text 4QMMT. God never required obedience to the Mosaic Law in order to become saved, so it is that much more true for man-made works of law.

In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Mosaic Law and that he served it with his mind, but contrasted that with a law of sin that held him captive and and that he served with his flesh. This is a summary statement of what he said previously, so the it is the law of sin that stirred up sinful passions to bear fruit unto death (7:5), that held him captive (7:6), that gave sin its power (7:8), that deceived him through the commandment and brought death to him (7:11), and that caused him not to do the good that he wanted to (7:13-20), while it is the Mosaic Law that is not sin, but reveals what sin is (7:7), is holy, righteous, and good (7:12), is the good that Paul did not blame for bringing death to him (7:13), and is the good that he desired to do (7:13-20). In short, the law of sin is the law where sin had dominion over him, so:

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Paul specified that the law we are not under when we are under grace is one where sin had dominion over him, which does not at all fit his description of the Mosaic Law, but perfectly fits his description of the law of sin. Likewise, Romans 5:20 fits his description of the law of sin. According to Psalms 119:29, David asked God to show his grace to him by teaching him to obey His Law, so if we are under grace, then we are under the Mosaic Law. This is confirmed in Titus 2:11-14, where our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to refrain from doing what is ungodly and sinful, which is an accurate description of what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct how to do. According to Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience that faith requires. According to John 1:16-17, grace was added upon grace, so the grace of Christ was added upon the grace of the Law. According to Jude 1:4, the ungodly pervert God's grace into a licence to sin, and sin is the transgression of the Mosaic Law (1 John 3:4). Strong's defines "grace" as "the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life" and when God's will influence our lives it takes the form of obedience to His commands. Grace is the power of God to overcome sin, which is again the transgression of the Law. It is absolutely false that God's grace is opposed to His Law, as though a house divided against itself could stand, but rather God shows His grace to us by teaching us how to rightly live.

AnticipateHisComing · Sep 9, 2017

I just want to emphasize that the commandments are not the Law, but the Law does contain commandments. Paul distinguishes them as separate.

Romans 7:12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

And Jesus was asked what was the greatest commandment in the Law. He says to love God and love you neighbor. He then states all Law is summed up in these two concepts. Does circumcision and other OT commands still fit this model from Jesus?

stuart lawrence · Sep 9, 2017

Carry each others burdens( love them) and so FULFILL the law of Christ
Gal6:2

Lee Stuvmen · Sep 9, 2017

RDKirk said:
I asked that question. Didn't get an answer.

I will try to give you an answer.

I will also attempt to be concise but brief.

It helps to realize that it all fits together seamlessly with God's ultimate PLAN to ensure His Son's sacrifice would be elevated to the HIGHEST POSSIBLE LEVEL.

Let's start at the beginning with Adam and Eve.

ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE;
Adam and Eve would have never known death, had they believed God.

Genesis 3
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Jump forward to the time of Moses;

Moses was given the 10 Commandments written with the finger of God.

But because of transgression against the 10 Commandments, . . . . . . . .

the statutes and ordinances of the LAW OF MOSES a.k.a. Mosaic Law, a.k.a. Levitican Law(found in Leviticus and Deuteronomy) was incorporated.

Romans 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Where Adam FAILED, the need for Christ and HIS Sacrifice became paramount and of the GREATEST NECESSITY!

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

ALSO, ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE;
The Law of Moses was incorporated SIMPLY TO PROVE to the universe, man's INABILITY TO ACHIEVE self righteousness,

and therefore,

Elevating Christ's sacrifice to the HIGHEST VALUE POSSIBLE

Romans 5
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Here is a VERY IMPORTANT POINT;
If one has ever attempted to keep Mosaic Law, one would realize that Mosaic Law IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR HUMANS TO KEEP, . . . .

BY GOD's DESIGN, so that;

Every human that ever lived MUST STAND BEFORE GOD GUILTY under Mosaic Law.

Break just one Mosaic Law, you are guilty of breaking all

End result = DEATH SENTENCE

Only those that have TRIED to keep Mosaic Law can FULLY APPRECIATE Christ's sacrifice for us.(such as Paul[a Pharisee])

Romans 5
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Mosaic Law served NO OTHER PURPOSE than to

1.) EXPOSE one's transgressions against God.
2.) EXPOSE man's inability to achieve self righteousness(required a Saviour)
3.) ELEVATE "GRACE" to the highest value possible

Now move forward to Jesus Death on the cross and resurrection.

Acts 13:39
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 4
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

So, . . . . . . .;
AFTER CHRIST, we now have two choices.

You can stand guilty under Mosaic Law(which was the ONLY CHOICE for all those before Christ)
[this was the law the Pharisee's embraced]

Or you can choose to stand in GRACE.

But you can ONLY PICK ONE!

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

The story goes even deeper, in regards of a PERPETUAL COVENANT between God and HIS PEOPLE, but that in a nutshell is what Scripture appears to be stating.

Hope it helped.
Lee

Soyeong · Sep 9, 2017

DamianWarS said:
let me quote to you another definition of the same lexicon
"pleroo: II. B. i. to make complete in every particular, to render perfect"

of course you misrepresent the lexicon definition. It's not "1. to fulfil...." letting us think this is the only and final definition, its "II. C. iii. to fulfil..." being the bottom-most of all the sub definitions. It's makes me question your motives and overall credibility as it seems to me you looked over a list of 12 points and picked the one that best suit your perspective which is highly irresponsible.

The word concretely means "to make full" or "to fill up". The verb is in the aorist state which means it is being referenced as a completed action so "[already] made full" or "[already] filled up" would be consistent but also "fulfilled" since this is being used more abstractly and flows better in English. In NT use it dominantly shows us a context where Christ is acting on something with intention, that is meant for him only and him completing said action is the act of him filling it, requiring him not to repeat it or for another to do it again.

Laws can be obeyed over and over but prophesies are far more specific. Perhaps obedience can be argued but once said obedience is complete so is the prophecy. Jesus makes no distinction between the law and the prophets and this type of expression usually is intended for the entirety of the jewish scripture not just the levitical law stuff; However one is interpreted so must the other. "obedience" is simply insufficient for the scope of prophecy when the completion of the prophecy is omitted. If Christ completes prophecy, then it is finished and does not need to be completed again, and again... so too the fate of the law. Did you ever consider that the law is a type of prophecy for Christ as well?

Words usually have multiple definitions, so I was in no way imply that that was the only definition or intending to conceal other definitions. I was simply using the definition that best reflects how the term is used in Scripture as the number of verses I cited demonstrated. "To make full" or to fill up" are also both good definitions in regard to showing a full understanding of the Law or cause someone to gain a full understanding of the Law. Jesus said he game to fulfill the Law and then proceeded to do so six times by teaching a complete understanding of it. This is also how the phrase is used in other Jewish literature. I'm not sure how the Law would work as a type of prophecy, but prophecies often have multiple fulfillments.

throughfiierytrial · Sep 9, 2017

GingerBeer said:
Okay, then you best get on with building a temple in Jerusalem, find some descendants of Aaron to be your priests, and offer sheep, goats, and bulls as sacrifices in the temple. Until you manage that you won't be keeping the eternal laws will you?

And I might add that Scripture is very clear that this is a new covenant and trying to keep the old covenant in the old ways carries some severe consequences. For why the book of Galations for instance? That congregation was guilty of this very matter/sin. Even Peter stumbled into this sin...yes, sin.
Romans tells us how we now uphold the Law...
Romans 13:8-10:
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Read all of Romans and you should surely get the picture.
And love is not just mushy feelings, it includes the desire and necessity to correct a wayward brother in Christ.

claninja · Sep 9, 2017

JIMINZ said:
.
All one had to do is read the verses, especially the highlighted part of the second verse.

You do understand what it means to have the Law written on our hearts don't you?

Here, I'll make it easy and clear what I think the law written on gentiles hearts means: to love your neighbor as yourself, as this is the fulfillment of the law.
I do not believe it means any of the other regulations (food restrictions, temple instructions, circumcision, etc...) were written on the gentiles heart.

This means i do believe there WAS a change in the law. It also appears that the author of Hebrews believes that there was a change In the law
Hebrews 7:12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

However, you originally stated the law was not done away with (this would mean unchanged), so i am still trying to understand what you mean by that. But for some reason, you are still not wanting to explain why you believe that.

claninja · Sep 9, 2017

A_Thinker said:
The problem here (possibly with my understanding) ... is that God? gives very specific instructions (in Leviticus) ... for sacrifices and offerings to Him.

Yes he does. So the question to ask is, does God need animal sacrifices in order to forgive sins?

DamianWarS · Sep 9, 2017

Soyeong said:
Do you think that in Matthew 23:2-4 that Jesus was criticizing the Pharisees for commanding the people

Words usually have multiple definitions, so I was in no way imply that that was the only definition or intending to conceal other definitions. I was simply using the definition that best reflects how the term is used in Scripture as the number of verses I cited demonstrated. "To make full" or to fill up" are also both good definitions in regard to showing a full understanding of the Law or cause someone to gain a full understanding of the Law. Jesus said he game to fulfill the Law and then proceeded to do so six times by teaching a complete understanding of it. This is also how the phrase is used in other Jewish literature. I'm not sure how the Law would work as a type of prophecy, but prophecies often have multiple fulfillments.

hmmm, which is it? first it's closer to "obey" now it's closer to "understand", both are avoiding the natural definition very agreeable with scriptural use. You're also going to have to expand on how you parallel this greek word with "other Jewish literature" specifically with what Jewish literature are you referring to?

Karl.C · Sep 9, 2017

Devin P said:
Jesus says in Matthew chapter 5:

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

In verse 18, He says that not until heaven and earth pass, shall the law have to be removed. Heaven and earth are still here, so not only does this mean that the law is still meant to be obeyed. In verse 19, He says that whoever shall refrain from the law, and teach others to do the same will be called the least in the kingdom, but whoever keeps the law, and teaches others to do the same, will be called great. Then in verse 20:

20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

This is saying that, the righteousness of the Pharisees, was by the letter, and not of faith. So, in order to have more righteousness than a Pharisee, one must only believe, and trust in God. But, we are to still keep the laws as the Pharisees said to, as stated by Jesus here: Matthew 23:1-3 - 1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

He is saying that the Pharisees teach the law of Moses, and that His disciples are to obey and to keep that law. To listen to them, because they preach the law of Moses, but only not to do as they do, because they place their faith in justification in themselves, and in man, not in God.

The law was never done away with, because it's displaying the Character of God. God cannot change. What is sin against Him yesterday, is sin against Him today and forever. Satan has infiltrated us, and caused us to view the law as sinful, which it is not. Jesus literally tells us that it isn't to pass until after judgement. We are to keep the law, but out of faith. I don't mean, out of faith the way the world says out of faith, I mean, that by having faith that God will justify you when you fail at it. Because you will. This knowing of your impossibility to keep the law shouldn't deter you from desiring to keep it. Romans 7 is a testament to that. The whole chapter is about him struggling to keep the laws of God, because his flesh and spirit are constantly warring one against the other. As we do today.

The doctrinal teaching of all grace and no law, isn't biblical. Abraham was justified by faith, but still kept the law. Genesis 26:5

Noah knew about clean and unclean animals Genesis 7:2
He even sacrificed a burnt offering on an altar, and only used clean animals to offer up: Genesis 8:20

Abraham also sacrificed a clean animal for a burnt offering to God, Genesis 22:13. It's not the law of Moses, it's the law of God, and it is never changing, because God is never changing. Abraham, although he was justified by faith, still kept the law of God. Genesis 26:5

The law was in fact a shadow, but only because through it, a lot of men thought that they were justified, when in fact, God is the only one who can justify. All of the bible is written about Israel. Israel, are God's children. They are those that have faith in God to justify, and be merciful, while they keep and uphold His laws. That is quite literally, every single great man ever written about in the bible. They struggled to keep the laws, while being strengthened by a sound faith in God. Moses was subject to the law, but saw and talked with God because of faith. David was to keep the law, but was justified by faith. Abraham was to keep it, but was justified by faith, Noah was to keep it, but was justified by faith. The prophets were to keep it, but were justified by faith. Jesus, was to keep it, and did. He was justified by the law, because He is the law. He is the word made flesh.

People try to say that people after Moses were the only ones to have known the law, but this biblically speaking, isn't so. It can be shown, over and over again throughout the pre-exodus scriptures. Even when Lot was visited by the Angels of the Lord. What type of bread did he offer up to Them? Genesis 19:3 - Unleavened bread. How would he have known to offer up to this being, unleavened bread if it weren't for the law? How about how just a chapter previously, where Abraham gave the Angel of the Lord a grain offering Genesis 18:6? These things were written about first with Moses, but they didn't originate there. The offerings, were done away with in Jesus, but not the laws themselves. The keeping of the 7th day Sabbath, the keeping of the Feast days, they are to remain until the end of time.

Besides, the feast days should be something we should want to celebrate. They all point to Jesus. All of them. Jesus has already fulfilled the first 4, and the last three He will come to fulfill as well. The very next one He has to fulfill is the feast of Trumpets. He will come during that time. No one knows exactly the day or the hour, but we know the season. It will happen in the fall, but because of Satan's influence, we don't know the exact day, or hour, only the season. Revelations says that Jesus will come when the last trumpet sounds, and the feast of trumpets, is one of the 3 feast days He hasn't yet fulfilled. The last two deal with separation of good and bad seed, and the reunion of God with His children. Both things, that Jesus will fulfill after He returns. Instead, we follow man-made tradition, and celebrate the evolution of the feast of Saturnalia (Christmas) Although, I'll save you from reading about this, as I'll make another thread about the pagan origins of modern-day holidays weobserve today. This thread is long enough haha. God bless, brothers and sisters. May the work and deception of Satan not deceive you from keeping, speaking, and living in truth.

Obviously Jesus wasn't talking about Moses' ordinances! He and his disciples were regularly accused by the religious leaders of his day of breaking "the law" (more correctly = lore = traditional superstitions & what observances went with them).

If you have a close read of Exodus, you should note that YHWH personally handed to Moses the Law" (= the Ten Words = the Decalogue = Asereth ha-Dibrot = the Ten Commandments).

Reading a little further along: you should note that Moses smashed YHWH's laws as a reaction to the Israelites demand that Aaron (the High Priest of the time) craft them a Golden Calf to be their representative towards God instead of Moses (because of his long absence they figured he was either dead or had deserted them) . Moses on seeing them dancing around "the calf" then promptly ignored YHWH's laws and instruction, and implemented his own ordinances which were draconian & doomed to failure in observance (see A.Paul's commentary on that issue). Modern Rabbi say that Moses did this to punish the Israelites. As usual with cult followings, Moses' ordinances were enforced by the priesthood (Aaron's clan & the Levites) and the rest is history.

Many commentators point out the similarity between Moses' ordinances and other Mesopotamian laws of the time. Given it was a visiting Midian priest, Jethro, who was Moses' father-in-law) that instigated the sacrifices (Ex 18:12), and this guy advised Moses saying "Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God: And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do. Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens: And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee..." (Ex 18:22).

Well from the OT (Hebrew scripture) we know Moses implemented his Midian priest's instruction and Israel ended up in a huge mess! By the time of Saul the judges had become so corrupt that the Israelites demanded that a king (like unto the nations) be instituted so justice might prevail in their community...

Moses' ordinances had some good things in them, but were mostly bad for Israelite society & their economy. Hence, Hillel's rationalisation of Moses' usary laws which had caused widespread corruption & brought Israel near to economic collapse.

On top of the historical facts, we have the Jewish saying that "the Law was unknown between Joshua & Ezra". Just reading up on King David's ignorance of the ordinances governing the priesthood & transportation of the Tabernacle underscores the fact. Jewish sources (Reformed? Liberal?) I have read suggest that Ezra's rediscovering of Moses' ordinances (the Law) was somewhat convenient = he either composed, modified them or added to them (?).

So the biblical witness is that Moses' ordinances never had any validity, but as was YHWH's habit, YHWH simply tolerated the Israelites & Moses regular rebellion against him. Liberal Jews are very vocal on this point in their criticism of the Conservative Ashkenazi Jews...

To answer your OP a little more directly I quote Jesus to demonstrate why Moses Ordinances are not "the Law" of which Jesus spoke...

"It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery." (Luke 16:17-18).

Moses' ordinances permitted divorce, and were silent on the adultery issue, but as Jesus regularly pointed out Moses' permit to Israel was against YHWH's intention (cp. Mt 19:5) = "For the hardness of your heart [Moses] wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder". (Mk 10:5-9).

At Luke 17:1 Jesus says to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come..." (NIV)

Romans 9:31-32 "But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone..."

Soyeong · Sep 10, 2017

DamianWarS said:
hmmm, which is it? first it's closer to "obey" now it's closer to "understand", both are avoiding the natural definition very agreeable with scriptural use. You're also going to have to expand on how you parallel this greek word with "other Jewish literature" specifically with what Jewish literature are you referring to?

Shema is to hear and obey. You need to correctly understand the Law in order to correctly obey it. The purpose of teaching the Law is not just so that we will understand what it requires, but so that we will put it into practice. It's about demonstrating a full understanding or interpretation of the Law by word or by example. This usage is consistent with the definition that you used, so I'm not sure what the more natural definition is that you think I am avoiding or why that would be more agreeable with scriptural use. I showed how Galatians 5:14, Galatians 6:2, Matthew 5, and Romans 15:18-19 are all consistent with the definition I used.

Here are some examples of other Jewish literature:

Mishneh Torah, Repentance 9:1
...But this is the correct order of things: the Holy Blessed One gave us this Torah, which is a Tree of Life; and anyone who does what is written in it and knows it with a full and correct understanding earns the Life of the World to Come. And according to the magnitude of her deeds and extent of her wisdom, so she earns. And we are promised in the Torah, that if we fulfill it with happiness and good will and review its wisdom at all times – that God will remove all the things that prevent us from fulfilling it, such as sickness, war, famine, etc. And God will give us all the good things that strengthen our hands to fulfill the Torah, such as sustenance, peace, and plenty of silver and gold, so that we will not need to engage in the needs of the body – but just sit available to learn with wisdom and to do the commandment, so that we earn the Life of the World to Come...

Pirkei Avot 4:9
R. Yonathan says: Whoever fulfills the Torah in poverty, [being pressed for sustenance and yet forsaking his work in order to study Torah] is destined to fulfill it in wealth. And whoever forsakes the Torah out of [preoccupation with his] wealth is destined to forsake it out of poverty.

Eruvin 22a
With regard to: “And he weighed [izzen], and sought out, and set in order many proverbs,” Ulla said that Rabbi Eliezer said: At first the Torah was like a basket without handles [oznayim], until Solomon came and made handles for it. By means of his explanations and proverbs he enabled each person to understand and take hold of the Torah, fulfill its mitzvot, and distance himself from transgressions.

Nedarim 25a:12-13
The Gemara asks: And let him administer an oath to them: That you fulfill the Torah. The Gemara answers: That phrase indicates only one Torah, the Written Torah and not the Oral Torah. The Gemara asks: And let him administer an oath: That you fulfill the Torahs, in the plural, to include both the Written Torah and Oral Torah. The Gemara answers: This too does not necessarily include the entire Torah, since it is possible that it indicates the Torah of the meal-offering, the Torah of the sin-offering, and the Torah of the guilt-offering. The Gemara asks: And let him administer an oath: That you fulfill the Torahs and mitzvot. The Gemara answers: This also does not include the entire Torah, because the word Torahs could indicate the Torah of the meal-offering, and mitzvot could indicate the commandments of the king. 13 The Gemara asks: And let him administer an oath: That you fulfill the entire Torah. The Gemara answers: Fulfilling the entire Torah could indicate specifically the denial of idol worship, which is also deemed fulfilling the entire Torah, as it is taught in a baraita: Idol worship is so severe a sin that anyone who denies it is considered as though he concedes to the truth of the entire Torah. The opposite is true for someone who worships idols. Therefore, the Jewish people could have claimed that fulfilling the entire Torah denotes nothing more than not practicing idol worship.

Sukkot 2:7
If one's head and the majority of one's body is inside the sukkah, and one's table [upon which one is eating] is in the house, Beit Shamai invalidate it, and Beit Hillel validate it. [The scholars of] Beit Hillel said to [the scholars of] Beit Shamai, "Did it not happen that the elders of Beit Shamai and the elders of Beit Hillel went to visit Rabbi Yochanan ben Hachoroni, and they found him sitting with his head and the majority of his body inside the sukkah, while his table was in the house, and they did not say a thing to [stop] him." The [scholars of] Beit Shamai responded to them, "[Can one really bring] a proof from there?! They did in fact say to him, 'If such has been your custom, you have never fulfilled the mitzvah of sukkah in all your days!'"

Iggeret HaRamban 11
Take heed to study Torah constantly, so you will be able to fulfill it's commands. When you arise from your learning reflect carefully on what you have studied, to find a lesson in it that you can be put into practice. Examine your actions every morning and evening, and in this way every one of your days will be spent in returning (to God).

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