[MOVED] So you're a Christian

Martin Moe · Sep 12, 2015

So you’re a Christian...

In my understanding, that the broad and basic definition of a Christian is that this is a person who believes that there is a supernatural entity who exists outside of the physical reality of this planet and this universe. They also believe that this entity whom Christians term God, created the universe, and all that is within it, including all natural biological life forms, as well as innumerable supernatural entities, angels, demons and the like, who also exist in both the natural and supernatural worlds. And that the greatest of this God's creations are human beings, whom It created in Its own image out of the dust of the Earth (Genesis and the Adam and Eve story) and gave them intelligence and free will. A Christian also believes that Adam and Eve disobeyed the edicts of this supernatural creator and as result they, and all their progeny, must suffer eternal punishment. But this Creator loved his creations and so constructed a “loophole” in his law and instructed his Son to become one with humanity and to intercede for humanity with him, his Father, to give these damned humans a way out of their predicament. All they have to do is to believe (A) that this Creator God actually exists (even if It doesn't communicate directly with them), (B) that Jesus Christ was/is his “Son”, and (C) that his Father (God) directed his son's horrible sacrificial death to atone basically for the original sin of Adam and Eve, as well as all the more minor sins that all humans knowingly and unknowingly commit. And (D) if they will just believe that it actually was Him that gave them the holy book, His Bible, and believe the stories and pronouncements within it, then He will grant them a pleasant eternal existence in his supernatural world after their biological life is complete. And if they don’t believe all this, even if analysis of their world disproves it, then their eternal existence will be filled with unimaginable tortures.

Although I have always lived within the cultural boundaries of Christian culture, even went to Sunday School as a kid, I have never been a Christian, even as a child I could never accept that the beliefs summarized above were even a reflection of reality and I refused to ever take communion or join a church (socially difficult). So if you are a Christian, do you believe all the stories and tales that are the foundation of supernatural Christianity? If so, why?

Martin Moe

2PhiloVoid · Sep 12, 2015

Martin Moe said:
So you’re a Christian...

In my understanding, that the broad and basic definition of a Christian is that this is a person who believes that there is a supernatural entity who exists outside of the physical reality of this planet and this universe. They also believe that this entity whom Christians term God, created the universe, and all that is within it, including all natural biological life forms, as well as innumerable supernatural entities, angels, demons and the like, who also exist in both the natural and supernatural worlds. And that the greatest of this God's creations are human beings, whom It created in Its own image out of the dust of the Earth (Genesis and the Adam and Eve story) and gave them intelligence and free will. A Christian also believes that Adam and Eve disobeyed the edicts of this supernatural creator and as result they, and all their progeny, must suffer eternal punishment. But this Creator loved his creations and so constructed a “loophole” in his law and instructed his Son to become one with humanity and to intercede for humanity with him, his Father, to give these damned humans a way out of their predicament. All they have to do is to believe (A) that this Creator God actually exists (even if It doesn't communicate directly with them), (B) that Jesus Christ was/is his “Son”, and (C) that his Father (God) directed his son's horrible sacrificial death to atone basically for the original sin of Adam and Eve, as well as all the more minor sins that all humans knowingly and unknowingly commit. And (D) if they will just believe that it actually was Him that gave them the holy book, His Bible, and believe the stories and pronouncements within it, then He will grant them a pleasant eternal existence in his supernatural world after their biological life is complete. And if they don’t believe all this, even if analysis of their world disproves it, then their eternal existence will be filled with unimaginable tortures.

Although I have always lived within the cultural boundaries of Christian culture, even went to Sunday School as a kid, I have never been a Christian, even as a child I could never accept that the beliefs summarized above were even a reflection of reality and I refused to ever take communion or join a church (socially difficult). So if you are a Christian, do you believe all the stories and tales that are the foundation of supernatural Christianity? If so, why?

Martin Moe

[Edited for clarity]

Hello Martin,

Thanks for sharing your summary viewpoint on Christian thought.

Similar to you, I've also lived within the cultural boundaries of Christianity, although I'd have to say that the earliest experiences I had with religion during my upbringing provided only a very slight and marginal understanding of the Christian faith. My family did not talk about religion, read the Bible, or pray as a family. A much fuller understanding of Christianity didn't even begin to form in my mind until I reached the age of 17.

One thing I've honestly had to contend with is the inconsistency between the Theory of Evolution and a literal interpretation of Genesis. As a child, I loved dinosaurs and everything science-fiction, including superheroes, with Jesus existing only as a small footnote in my thought life, and evolution was something I basically took for granted early on. Being almost thoroughly ignorant of the Bible and its contents, I had very little, if any, idea that evolution contended with any kind of religious perspective. When I reached the age of 17 and appropriated Christianity into my life, I became very familiar with the Bible, while at the same time wrestling with the fact that I could not divest myself of the Theory of Evolution and simply adopt a hyper-literal biblical framework as had some of my Christian friends and acquaintances.

Even now, after almost 30 years of walking within the Christian faith, I do not take an ultra-literal approach to the stories and tales of the earliest parts of the Bible. I instead take it as a mainly human representation of an ancient, Jewish worldview, solidified in writing--of course you'll understand if I say that all of what I've just said has been put in over-simplified terms. Nevertheless, I do believe the Bible is "God-breathed," unlike any other book in the history of the world, and it has remained a cogent part of my thought life and even now catalyzes my thinking toward the Christian faith everyday.

Personally, I don't think a person has to interpret the Bible in a stiff, wooden fashion in order to claim the faith that is instilled within its pages. But, that's my take on it.

Peace
2PhiloVoid

Dialogist · Sep 12, 2015

Martin Moe said:
A Christian also believes that Adam and Eve disobeyed the edicts of this supernatural creator and as result they, and all their progeny, must suffer eternal punishment.

At this point you are referring to Roman Catholic and Protestant beliefs, but not Orthodox Christian beliefs.

Orthodox Christians believe that the fall was not simply our ancestors disobeying "the edicts of this supernatural creator", but rather that out of pride, they ignored what God had instructed them to do for their own good. The consequence was not a demand that they and all their progeny "must suffer eternal punishment", but rather that they and their progeny suffer the consequences of their separation from God, which they themselves brought about.

There are many differences between Orthodox Christian beliefs and Catholic/Protestant beliefs in the other items you continue with, but most of these differences stem from a basic difference in understanding the nature of man and of man's fall. It seems to me that Western Christianity understands Salvation mostly in terms of a restitution, whereas eastern Christianity understands Salvation in terms of a restoration.

AV1611VET · Sep 12, 2015

Martin Moe said:
So if you are a Christian, do you believe all the stories and tales that are the foundation of supernatural Christianity?

Yes.

Martin Moe said:
If so, why?

Faith.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

In your OP, you said this:

(even if It doesn't communicate directly with them),

And that is a serious mistake.

God communicates to us in writing, and we respond in prayer.

SkyWriting · Sep 12, 2015

Martin Moe said:
In my understanding, that the broad and basic definition of a Christian is that this is a person who believes that there is a supernatural entity who exists outside of the physical reality of this planet and this universe.

Nope. "Christians" believe that Jesus existed and was a teacher.
"Christianity" includes some that only embrace "Christian Values"
not even being sure that Jesus existed. "Born-again" Christians
have an understanding that they need some outside forgiveness
for their personal failings and that God is the only way to find
that forgiveness

None of those groups are required to accept all the stories in scripture,
though many do believe in Jesus resurrection.

Next comes your church groups. While they hold to differing
levels of "literalness" as a group, time spend in Sunday class
will reveal an amazing span of personal beliefs.

What you will find is that while many churches have collective
standards for what they profess as a group, as individuals, they
each hold their own opinions.

Personally, I know that Jesus was the Son of God, just by reading
what has been written about Him. His life is consistent with being
one that no human being could match. He must have been who
He claimed He was. Other than His resurrection, none of those
other Hard-to-swallow stories are needed to believe in Christ.

Crowns&Laurels · Sep 12, 2015

Christianity is a very unique form of monotheism given the Trinity, and expresses our likeness to God. A Christian believes in the Father, the Creator of all, who was grieved by our indiscretions but gave a way for us to be one with Him once again.

SkyWriting · Sep 13, 2015

Believing the stories is not critical:

19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse..

Albion · Sep 13, 2015

Martin Moe said:
So you’re a Christian...

In my understanding, that the broad and basic definition of a Christian is that this is a person who believes that there is a supernatural entity who exists outside of the physical reality of this planet and this universe.

As "SkyWriting" noted, that idea is actually antithetical to Christianity. One of the most notable features of the Christian religion is that God is NOT believed to exist only outside of the physical reality of this planet and this universe. In none other of the great world religions is the creator of all believed to have become one of his own creatures and lived among us--in part so that we would know him in the physical terms that make sense to us.

Steeno7 · Sep 13, 2015

Martin Moe said:
So you’re a Christian...

In my understanding, that the broad and basic definition of a Christian is that this is a person who believes that there is a supernatural entity who exists outside of the physical reality of this planet and this universe. They also believe that this entity whom Christians term God, created the universe, and all that is within it, including all natural biological life forms, as well as innumerable supernatural entities, angels, demons and the like, who also exist in both the natural and supernatural worlds. And that the greatest of this God's creations are human beings, whom It created in Its own image out of the dust of the Earth (Genesis and the Adam and Eve story) and gave them intelligence and free will. A Christian also believes that Adam and Eve disobeyed the edicts of this supernatural creator and as result they, and all their progeny, must suffer eternal punishment. But this Creator loved his creations and so constructed a “loophole” in his law and instructed his Son to become one with humanity and to intercede for humanity with him, his Father, to give these damned humans a way out of their predicament. All they have to do is to believe (A) that this Creator God actually exists (even if It doesn't communicate directly with them), (B) that Jesus Christ was/is his “Son”, and (C) that his Father (God) directed his son's horrible sacrificial death to atone basically for the original sin of Adam and Eve, as well as all the more minor sins that all humans knowingly and unknowingly commit. And (D) if they will just believe that it actually was Him that gave them the holy book, His Bible, and believe the stories and pronouncements within it, then He will grant them a pleasant eternal existence in his supernatural world after their biological life is complete. And if they don’t believe all this, even if analysis of their world disproves it, then their eternal existence will be filled with unimaginable tortures.

Although I have always lived within the cultural boundaries of Christian culture, even went to Sunday School as a kid, I have never been a Christian, even as a child I could never accept that the beliefs summarized above were even a reflection of reality and I refused to ever take communion or join a church (socially difficult). So if you are a Christian, do you believe all the stories and tales that are the foundation of supernatural Christianity? If so, why?

Martin Moe

Nope, that ain't Christianity.

Martin Moe · Sep 13, 2015

How accurate is the "word of God"? To me it seems more like the garbled voice of the special interests that have existed throughout history. The Christian Bible is an amazing distillation of the lore and practice of early Christianity . Thanks to the political needs of the Emperor Constantine and the efforts of 318 Bishops codified the basic doctrines of the Christian religion, that Jesus Christ was an eternal manifestation of God and that the Father and Son were “of one substance” and that the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were co equal and eternal Persons. The 318 Bishops actually voted on what would constitute the “Nicene Creed” the basic statement of the original Christian beliefs that are held even today. the 50 hand written copies of the first edition of this Bible were commissioned by Constantine in 331. The fog of history, the whirlpool of controversy, and the heavy hand of self interest all obscure the origin and development of the Christian religion. But is clear that the Christian Bible was not directly written by God himself. It was not delivered in a nicely packaged, unalterable manuscript by an angel flying in a window. If God had a spiritual hand in its creation, it had to be through the minds and passions of many different individuals over many years. There have been many individuals and groups who have rewritten and expounded upon these texts to suit their own beliefs and ambitions. And many of these efforts have created “religions” large and small over many years. Some persist to this day and others have faded into history.

And this was all pontificated before scientific knowledge of physics, biology and chemistry described our reality through analysis rather than revelation. Evidently, a meaningful religious belief (i.e., belief in a supernatural meaning to human life) and faith (a trust that your belief is true) is extremely personal and when viewed in the context of all the varied human cultures, is enormously complex. There are many thousands of religions in our world today and all of them think that they have the inside track to the identity .and purpose of God (s). It seems to me that if an omniscient and omnipresent God had really wanted the crown of his creation to know Him and His works, he could have figured out a better way to do that.

Steeno7 · Sep 13, 2015

Martin Moe said:
How accurate is the "word of God"? To me it seems more like the garbled voice of the special interests that have existed throughout history. The Christian Bible is an amazing distillation of the lore and practice of early Christianity . Thanks to the political needs of the Emperor Constantine and the efforts of 318 Bishops codified the basic doctrines of the Christian religion, that Jesus Christ was an eternal manifestation of God and that the Father and Son were “of one substance” and that the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were co equal and eternal Persons. The 318 Bishops actually voted on what would constitute the “Nicene Creed” the basic statement of the original Christian beliefs that are held even today. the 50 hand written copies of the first edition of this Bible were commissioned by Constantine in 331. The fog of history, the whirlpool of controversy, and the heavy hand of self interest all obscure the origin and development of the Christian religion. But is clear that the Christian Bible was not directly written by God himself. It was not delivered in a nicely packaged, unalterable manuscript by an angel flying in a window. If God had a spiritual hand in its creation, it had to be through the minds and passions of many different individuals over many years. There have been many individuals and groups who have rewritten and expounded upon these texts to suit their own beliefs and ambitions. And many of these efforts have created “religions” large and small over many years. Some persist to this day and others have faded into history.

And this was all pontificated before scientific knowledge of physics, biology and chemistry described our reality through analysis rather than revelation. Evidently, a meaningful religious belief (i.e., belief in a supernatural meaning to human life) and faith (a trust that your belief is true) is extremely personal and when viewed in the context of all the varied human cultures, is enormously complex. There are many thousands of religions in our world today and all of them think that they have the inside track to the identity .and purpose of God (s). It seems to me that if an omniscient and omnipresent God had really wanted the crown of his creation to know Him and His works, he could have figured out a better way to do that.

The key words there are, "it seems to me". Your image of God is that of a weakling who is totally at the mercy of man. It is a perverted image.

2PhiloVoid · Sep 13, 2015

Martin Moe said:
How accurate is the "word of God"? To me it seems more like the garbled voice of the special interests that have existed throughout history. The Christian Bible is an amazing distillation of the lore and practice of early Christianity . Thanks to the political needs of the Emperor Constantine and the efforts of 318 Bishops codified the basic doctrines of the Christian religion, that Jesus Christ was an eternal manifestation of God and that the Father and Son were “of one substance” and that the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were co equal and eternal Persons. The 318 Bishops actually voted on what would constitute the “Nicene Creed” the basic statement of the original Christian beliefs that are held even today. the 50 hand written copies of the first edition of this Bible were commissioned by Constantine in 331. The fog of history, the whirlpool of controversy, and the heavy hand of self interest all obscure the origin and development of the Christian religion. But is clear that the Christian Bible was not directly written by God himself. It was not delivered in a nicely packaged, unalterable manuscript by an angel flying in a window. If God had a spiritual hand in its creation, it had to be through the minds and passions of many different individuals over many years. There have been many individuals and groups who have rewritten and expounded upon these texts to suit their own beliefs and ambitions. And many of these efforts have created “religions” large and small over many years. Some persist to this day and others have faded into history.

And this was all pontificated before scientific knowledge of physics, biology and chemistry described our reality through analysis rather than revelation. Evidently, a meaningful religious belief (i.e., belief in a supernatural meaning to human life) and faith (a trust that your belief is true) is extremely personal and when viewed in the context of all the varied human cultures, is enormously complex. There are many thousands of religions in our world today and all of them think that they have the inside track to the identity .and purpose of God (s). It seems to me that if an omniscient and omnipresent God had really wanted the crown of his creation to know Him and His works, he could have figured out a better way to do that.

Hi Martin,

May I ask what some of the sources are which contribute to your (several) conclusion(s)?

2PhiloVoid

juvenissun · Sep 13, 2015

Martin Moe said:
. It seems to me that if an omniscient and omnipresent God had really wanted the crown of his creation to know Him and His works, he could have figured out a better way to do that.

It is obvious that God wants more than that.
Do you know what does God really want from you?

SkyWriting · Sep 14, 2015

Martin Moe said:
It seems to me that if an omniscient and omnipresent God had really wanted the crown of his creation to know Him and His works, he could have figured out a better way to do that.

According to the scripture on the subject, God walked with Adam in the Garden.
I'm not sure how much closer God needed to be to comply with your demands.
Then Adam took the step of NOT taking God's counsel.

Later in the story, God returned to earth as a man and still
you are not pleased.

Your requests are considered met. God has taken all the payment
for your sins and, you'd think, has no further obligation to inform you,
but He keeps at it.

Emmy · Sep 14, 2015

Dear Martin Moe. Do we know what God really wants from us? I love to believe Jesus, and He tells us in
Matthew 22: 35-40: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself. " Verse 40 tells us: " on these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters.
In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: " Ask and you shall receive." The Bible tells us:
" Repent and be Born Again," we stop being selfish and unloving, and become loving and caring. We ask God for Love and Joy, then thank God and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour. We keep asking and receiving, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. ( neighbour is all we know and all we meet, friends an not friends)
God sees our loving efforts, and God will approve and bless us. The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and Jesus
our Saviour will lead us all the way: JESUS IS THE WAY. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on loving and caring.
We will find that people will treat us the same as we treat people. We will enjoy life and be sign-posts to God our Heavenly Father. It is Love what this imperfect world needs, and God is Love and will give us His Love to spread all around us, Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds, and love our neighbour as we love ourselves: treat all others as we would love to be treated. I say this with love, Martin. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

Albion · Sep 14, 2015

~STAFF EDIT~
I'm not defining Christianity. I'm responding to the question about what makes Christianity different, substantially different, fundamentally different, from the other religions.

OldWiseGuy · Sep 14, 2015

Martin Moe said:
In my understanding, that...............if they don’t believe all this............then their eternal existence will be filled with unimaginable tortures.

"The soul that sinneth shall die", not live forever in torment.

Martin Moe · Sep 14, 2015

Thank you for your comments, I appreciate them all. As to my sources as asked by 2PhiloVoid, “May I ask what some of the sources are which contribute to your (several) conclusion(s)?” Hoo Boy! For 2000 years, actually more than that, but that’s when the Christian Era began, human being have explored beliefs, ideas, admonishments, scriptures, laws, definitions, and the nature of supernatural beings that have, in my opinion, been derived from the analysis and codifications of the imaginations developed in the human mind from human interactions with nature and from within and between human societies. This has resulted in so much smoke that any trace of fire has been obscured. I could give you a huge list of human writings that endeavor to capture this smoke and put it into neatly corked bottles labeled with the understandings, self interests, and also the honest efforts of the writers to find the truth in the spaghetti bowl of history.

The perspective of those like C. S. Lewis and lately, Lee Strobel is to defend and promote belief in the glorious mix of history and faith that is Christianity. The perspective of others like Bertrand Russell. Carl Sagan, and lately Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins is to bring out the inconsistencies and inanities that lie in religious teachings and writings. But there are many scholars in the mix, like Karen Armstrong, Robin Lane Fox, L. Michael White, and Burton L. Mack that dissect the real history in the development of religions. I can’t say that I have read everything both for and against religious belief, the mention of specific authors above is woefully inadequate. My mind could not encompass all that has been and is being written. Perhaps that is the basis for some that have a basic faith and go no further than the current culturally acceptable beliefs. I am reminded of a bumper sticker I saw on I 95, “The Bible said it, I believe it, and that’s that!”

Actually I think the American philosopher William James expressed the essence of the controversy as to whether God, Christian or otherwise, actually exists when he said, “I myself believe that the evidence of God lies primarily in inner personal experiences.” So I cannot see into the minds of Christians and know the rationale for their religious faith, I can only look at religion, the world, and humanity as they are, and wonder...

Albion · Sep 14, 2015

~STAFF EDIT~
Nope. But I'm still not "defining" Christianity. I'm pointing to what makes it fundamentally different from the other great religions...just as I said in that first post.

It is in the nature of the God that Christianity follows. Of course, there are numerous other differences, which you'd discount as immaterial, but I didn't answer with a list of minor differences. My purpose was to identify the reason Christianity is significantly different.

Owkay.
Like I said, so simply stating the obvious.

If you consider it to be obvious, then you are agreeing with me. But it can't be as obvious for all readers or else the OP wouldn't have raised the issue.

FreeinChrist · Sep 14, 2015

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[MOVED] So you're a Christian

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