Most reliable method of preserving doctrine?

[Ortho_Cat]

I posted this on the other thread, but I changed my mind and decided the topic deserves its own thread. So what is the most accurate/reliable/trustworthy method of preserving doctrine based on similarity of beliefs; Apostolic Succession or Sola Scriptura? I have posted the case for AS below, I would appreciate it if someone else could post the case for SS eventually.

OK, as promised, I have come up with a list which shows some of the things that the apostolic churches share in common over the last ~2000 years. By apostolic church, I mean those who claim and adhere to apostolic succession:

Apostolic succession (Hebrew: האפיפיור הירושה‎, Greek: Αποστολική διαδοχ&#942 is a doctrine, held by some Christian denominations, which asserts that the chosen successors (properly ordained bishops) of the Twelve Apostles, from the first century to the present day, have inherited the spiritual, ecclesiastical and sacramental authority, power, and responsibility that were conferred upon them by the Apostles, who in turn received their spiritual authority from Jesus Christ.

Apostolic succession - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These communions I have included are: Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Church of England (Traditional Anglican), and Assyrian Church of East. I haven't included Lutherans because this claim is disputed among them.

These common beliefs are:

-Eucharist is true body and blood of our Lord, effectual for our salvation
-Baptism remits sins and is effective for our salvation (i.e. grace is received)
-Belief in 7 sacraments*
-RC/EO/CoE agree on first 7 councils, OO on first 3, and ACOE on first 2
-Baptism of infants
-Liturgical worship
-All use deuterocanonicals canonized by RCC**
-Use prescribed church calendar (fasts/feasts)
-Salvation is not an instantaneous "event", rather a process
-Monastics (monks/nuns)
-Prayer for the dead
-Communion of saints
-Episcopal polity (church governance structure, bishop is head, priests are auxilliary of bishop, deacons assist priest)
-Declare Mary as Theotokos (birthgiver of God) and ever-virgin
-Amillenialism eschatological (end-times) view
-Jesus descended into Hades after death
-Refer to spiritual elders as Father/Mother
-Primary day of weekly worship is Sunday (Day of Resurrection)
-Eucharist is a sacrifice (a re-presentation of Christ's single sacrifice)

*Baptism, eucharist, chrismation/confirmation, holy orders, confession, marriage, unction)
**CoE adds Jerome's foreward, and Ethiopian Orthodox uses a different translation of Maccabees. Also, some consider other books inspired as well, but they all agree on these.

This list is not exhaustive; there are more. If anyone finds any errors in what I've said, or if you'd like me to add anything, please let me know.

It is also worth noting that Lutheran's also share many beliefs in common with the above as well.

I would be interested to see a similar list for Protestants so we can compare it to the list I made. Keep in mind that Protestantism is pretty much confined to the West (or at least they were originally) and only have 500 years to account for, while the Apostolic Churches comprise both East and West, and account for 2000 years. Would anyone be up to the task?

 

[Montalban]

Several Protestant groups indeed accept some traditions such as the Ever-Virginity of Mary

 

[Gnarwhal]

I'm going to subscribe to this, it seems pretty interesting.

 

[Montalban]

I'm going to subscribe to this, it seems pretty interesting.

So I shouldn't tell you how it ends?

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Several Protestant groups indeed accept some traditions such as the Ever-Virginity of Mary

I went ahead and included this along with the title Theotokos, even though the latter is included in the councils.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

So I shouldn't tell you how it ends?

lol, hopefully no bloodshed...

 

[Montalban]

lol, hopefully no bloodshed...

The butler did it
(but that's just between you and me)

 

[Tim Myers]

"Most reliable method of preserving doctrine?"

Which "doctrine" are we talking about here??.....

Only the doctrines of Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Church of England (Anglican), and Assyrian Church of East??

 

[Isolation]

Pfft I like my doctrines more

 

[Ortho_Cat]

"Most reliable method of preserving doctrine?"

Which "doctrine" are we talking about here??.....

Only the doctrines of Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Church of England (Anglican), and Assyrian Church of East??

Any kind of doctrine, so long as it is held by the entire group I listed the doctrines in common for those churches who profess apostolic succession. Someone else can list the doctrines or beliefs held by protestants who profess sola scriptura.

 

[Tim Myers]

I guess I am ignorant then......

I thought the Nicene Creed was the Protestant "list".....

 

[Montalban]

I guess I am ignorant then......

I thought the Nicene Creed was the Protestant "list".....

The Creed is a statement of beliefs.

It's not the same as a list of books that make up the Bible.

 

[Tim Myers]

"The Creed is a statement of beliefs."

That is what ortho and I were talking about....

 

[Montalban]

"The Creed is a statement of beliefs."

That is what ortho and I were talking about....

Indeed. I miss-read what you were saying. Sorry.

The Nicene Creed is indeed a setting out of beliefs, however some Protestants accept other Creeds (notably the Apostles Creed), and the rulings of Ecumenical Councils.

 

[New_Wineskin]

It is also worth noting that Lutheran's also share many beliefs in common with the above as well.

I would be interested to see a similar list for Protestants so we can compare it to the list I made. Keep in mind that Protestantism is pretty much confined to the West (or at least they were originally) and only have 500 years to account for, while the Apostolic Churches comprise both East and West, and account for 2000 years. Would anyone be up to the task?

Ok . Once again , the idea that there could be *any* list for "Protestantism" on something like this shows the wrong idea of what "Protestantism" is . And this after threads on what protestantism is come up every so often .

The term "protestant" is given to anyone claiming to be christian and not Catholic or Orthodox ( maybe one or two other exceptions ) . It is like lumping all living things that are not oranges in the same group and , instead of calling them "non-oranges" , they are called something else to make them all seem to be similar to each other when some are closed to oranges and many that are nothing like oranges .

Just because all "protestants" are not Catholic , it doesn't mean that they are unified to any extent to form some sort of coalition . We don't all look at each other as fellow noncatholics as if there is something in common outside of simply being christians . And , not all noncatholics agree with SS .

You mention that it was "worth noting" that Lutherans share beliefs with those that agree with AS . Well , that is a no-brainer . They split directly from Catholicism and Luther only changed things he didn't like . He was still Catholic ( in his own mind ) and wanted to be a part of the group - only that the group would changed to suit his tastes .

I see no list agreed upon by all noncatholics that doesn't stick with the points made in the forum's creed .

I am not attempting to argue . I simply cannot understand threads lke this that still miss the point that lumping all christians together who are not a part of the Catholic or Orthodox groups does not mean that there are any other similarities .

 

[Montalban]

Ok . Once again , the idea that there could be *any* list for "Protestantism" on something like this shows the wrong idea of what "Protestantism" is . And this after threads on what protestantism is come up every so often .

I think that simply points to the problem these discussions always raise - how then do you know what is the truth?

Some Protestants accept some traditions, such as Mary being called Theotokos, and Mary being Ever-Virgin

 

[MamaZ]

I think that simply points to the problem these discussions always raise - how then do you know what is the truth?

Some Protestants accept some traditions, such as Mary being called Theotokos, and Mary being Ever-Virgin

Jesus said continue in my word and ye shall know the truth. And the truth shall set you free.

 

[Sidheil]

I think the assumption is that the most reliable method of preserving doctrine will produce less division. It's not so much Protestant vs. Catholic as it is Sola Scriptura vs. Apostolic Succession.

 

[Dorothea]

I posted this on the other thread, but I changed my mind and decided the topic deserves its own thread. So what is the most accurate/reliable/trustworthy method of preserving doctrine based on similarity of beliefs; Apostolic Succession or Sola Scriptura? I have posted the case for AS below, I would appreciate it if someone else could post the case for SS eventually.

OK, as promised, I have come up with a list which shows some of the things that the apostolic churches share in common over the last ~2000 years. By apostolic church, I mean those who claim and adhere to apostolic succession:

Apostolic succession (Hebrew: האפיפיור הירושה‎, Greek: Αποστολική διαδοχ&#942 is a doctrine, held by some Christian denominations, which asserts that the chosen successors (properly ordained bishops) of the Twelve Apostles, from the first century to the present day, have inherited the spiritual, ecclesiastical and sacramental authority, power, and responsibility that were conferred upon them by the Apostles, who in turn received their spiritual authority from Jesus Christ.

Apostolic succession - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These communions I have included are: Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Church of England (Anglican), and Assyrian Church of East. I haven't included Lutherans because this claim is disputed among them.

These common beliefs are:

-Eucharist is true body and blood of our Lord, effectual for our salvation
-Baptism remits sins and is effective for our salvation (i.e. grace is received)
-Belief in 7 sacraments*
-RC/EO/CoE agree on first 7 councils, OO on first 3, and ACOE on first 2
-Baptism of infants
-Liturgical worship
-All use deuterocanonicals canonized by RCC**
-Use prescribed church calendar (fasts/feasts)
-Salvation is not an instantaneous "event", rather a process
-Monastics (monks/nuns)
-Prayer for the dead
-Communion of saints
-Episcopal polity (church governance structure, bishop is head, priests are auxilliary of bishop, deacons assist priest)
-Declare Mary as Theotokos (birthgiver of God) and ever-virgin

*Baptism, eucharist, chrismation/confirmation, holy orders, confession, marriage, unction)
**CoE adds Jerome's foreward, and Ethiopian Orthodox uses a different translation of Maccabees. Also, some consider other books inspired as well, but they all agree on these.

This list is not exhaustive; there are more. If anyone finds any errors in what I've said, or if you'd like me to add anything, please let me know.

It is also worth noting that Lutheran's also share many beliefs in common with the above as well.

I would be interested to see a similar list for Protestants so we can compare it to the list I made. Keep in mind that Protestantism is pretty much confined to the West (or at least they were originally) and only have 500 years to account for, while the Apostolic Churches comprise both East and West, and account for 2000 years. Would anyone be up to the task?

What exactly do you mean by the bolded, ortho? Did not the EOC also canonize the deuterocanonicals?

 

[hedrick]

Going back to the original question, the only way I know of to preserve a set of doctrines is to adopt them as authoritative. Apostolic succession alone doesn't do it; in addition, the people involved have to be committed to preserving the doctrine. Remember, the Anglican Church has the succession. The only way to avoid saying that they have a valid Apostolic Succession is to say that they violated the intention of the succession by changing doctrines.

The Lutheran and Reformed traditions also maintain a set of doctrines by being confessional churches. They don't require a literal succession, although in practice I believe the existing Lutheran and Reformed churches can all be traced back to the Reformation churches. Rather, their constitutions are based on the concept of being a confessional church.

There are conservative and liberal Lutheran and Reformed churches, but there's nothing in the Apostolic Succession to specify exactly how literally later people will agree with the earliest holders of the doctrine. Indeed the current understanding of "no salvation outside the church" is almost certainly a liberalized interpretation, and there are other areas where interpretation have changed over time as well.

The Orthodox have probably stayed the closest to unchanging doctrine. They tend to emphasize unchanging doctrine as a goal. It sounds to me like they place a higher priority on doctrinal continuity and a lower one on physical continuity, although they do have that.

Of course this whole discussion somewhat missed the point from a Protestant point of view, since our goal is conformity to the teachings of Jesus and the original Apostles, more than doctrinal continuity. In practice Protestants tend to be Nicene, because we see the Nicene Creed as containing things that are Scriptural. But continuity with the Nicene Creed, or preserving doctrine in general, is not in itself a goal for us.