Moshiach/G-d

You are genuinely inquiring. I am sorry if or when in the past I mistook your interest for "fishing" or trolling. You ask the hard questions. And that means the answers must be well researched. Pat answers, parroted claims, quotes from any "authority" other than the scriptures won't cut the mustard. And that makes the uninformed uneasy.

ChavaK said:

From another thread here:
I did not want to side track the other thread, so thought I would
ask this separately.

Why would one believe that the moshiach needs to be G-d?
Is it because Christians/Messianics have tied the moshiach
to personal salvation, while Jews do not?

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1. To perfectly fulfill Torah (which no human being can do on their own). We have a clue in 1 Corinthians 15:45 referring to Yeshua as the last Adam. Indicating even his human nature was without sin (pre-fall adamic human nature) made possible by his miraculous birth.

1. a. The Bible speaks of several miraculous births / beginnings. Adam and Eve had miraculous beginnings. Isaac did. John son of Zechariah / Elizabeth (the Baptizer).

1. b. I realize the virgin birth of Jesus is a matter of some disagreement for another discussion. Suffice it here to say I have taken the parthenos LXX argument to the enth degree with upstanding rabbis who disagreed with me but conceded that their objection to the word (based on the claim that Dinah was parthenos after that animal Shechem had his way was anecdotal to her tender age... making Shechem what is today called a pedophile). Which in turn is demonstration that almah in Isaiah 7:14 is as good as saying betulah...
2. Yeshua's sacrifice as the pascal Lamb of God if he were just a man would have had no consequence for others' justification / salvation / redemption.
3. Do not presume the voluminous means by which brilliant rabbinical scholars have circumvented the temple sacrifice / big chunk of the Torah itself / means Jews never thought they needed forgiveness for sins. Quite the contrary. Modern Jews (to better qualify your statement) "do not" ancient Jews did seek and need personal salvation... why else the sacrifices etc? HaShem has done everything he could and still keep it a free choice to point the way to Yeshua (including keeping the Jews from being able to do the old sacrificial atonements to point to the once for all forever sacrifice of the Lamb of God for all who believe him). To him shall you listen and all who don't will be held accountable... that's not Christian ritual it is Deuteronomy 18:15-19.

Would there be a difference between what Trin/Non-Trin
Messianics believe regarding the moshiach being G-d, and
whether one role of the moshiach is to atone for personal
sin?

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There would be a difference of authenticity. I believe given enough time in a non hostile environment I can prove from the scriptures that the ONE God is Triune in nature, which solves all the dilemmas the other theologies have with scripture itself. For me, it is as simple as believing God (taking him at his word). And it is prophetically clued / hinted at from Genesis to Revelation.

For example, Yeshua clearly taught and spoke of the Father, his Father, as an individual other than himself that he submitted to and even spoke to (John 17). Yet clearly the preincarnate Yeshua is the Creator of all things created.

John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God.
2 The same was in the beginning WITH God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Stop here a moment. Christians parrot this phrase highlighted in blue without thinkling about what they are saying. The only thing the Father created or "begot" (gave birth or beginning to) was the Son (meaning the human body of Yeshua which he preexisted in Spirit as the Word who is God and is WITH God).

Hebrews 10:5-7
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Preexistent: "when he came into the world he said..."

And calling the Father God in verse 7 is not to undeify himself as the Father called the Son God:

Hebrews 1:8
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Yeshua is the Creator of Genesis 1:1

Colossians 1:13-18
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the {visible} image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Isaiah 44:24
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

This answer is running quite long, but I can also show you that the preincarnate Yeshua is the one whom mankind (including klal yisro'el) was dealing with all along. And for these reasons (he was creator and he was the one dealing with humanity, it was he of the triune deity who had to pay the price for sin in man's stead).

Proverbs 26:27
27 Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein: and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him.

When reading this thread, I thought about Moses Maimonides' 'book' Guide for the perplexed.

. . .

ProScribe said:

When reading this thread, I thought about Moses Maimonides' 'book' Guide for the perplexed.

. . .

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I read that... would not give my recommendation on it though

ChavaK said:

Did he also explicitly say he was G-d?

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Yeshua never said, "I am God", however, He never objected when Thomas said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" But for me, what does it mean to be God? It means to be omnicient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. We see the term God as being the head of all things, when I believe it to be more in line with character and ability. When it says that no one knows the hour nor the day of the end except the Father and the Son, Yeshua put Himself as being equal in knowledge as the Father. I do not believe the Father and the Son to be the same person, but they hold the same knowledge and power. One is on the throne of heaven, the other is our High Priest, the Right Hand of the Father, our Mediator between man and the Father, and of course, our Atoning Lamb.

Tanakh said:

Jewish law dictates that the Messiah will be divine, yes, but that he will NOT be G-d because to assume, in any way, that G-d is physical is blasphemy as the trinity implies that G-d must sacrifice Himself in order to atone for humanities sin. The Messiah will carry out a divine mission but he will fulfill it before he dies and so Jesus Christ cannot be the Messiah that is foretold in the Tanakh. The Messiah will be a human being and not G-d "in the flesh".

Christianity through the trinity especially left true Monotheism and instead incorporated paganism and so Judaism and Christianity are not compatable in terms of their outlook on the Messiah.

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I do agree with that. Yeshua was human in that He possessed all that make us human; a body, a soul, and a spirit. He prayed to the Father in heaven, therefore, He cannot be the Father because the Father was in heaven at the time that He prayed to Him. That goes against what it means to be human. He was God in His knowledge and power, however, He does not hold the same position as God the Father (ruler and King). He is as I stated above. It is the same with a kingdom: you have the King and then the Prince. Both hold as much power but one is over authority of the other.

I hope I am making some sense here!

n/t

ChavaK said:

No problem, giving the amount of trolling that can occur on forums,
that is perfectly understandable.
So trolling, no, inquiring, yes



Oh, sorry...didn't mean to make them hard


Which yours was, thank you for answering.

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John 8:58
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Exodus 3:13-15
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Also, Exodus 33:14 And He said, "My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest."

Matthew:28“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

But what else?
Mark 2: 5When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” 6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7“Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?


Or how about this? From Listening to the Language of the Bible pages 137 and 138:

The Kingdom Breaks Forth (HaPoretz)

I will bring them together like sheep in a pen, like a flock in its pasture; the place will throng with people. One who breaks open the way will go up before them; they will break through the gate and go out. Their king will pass through before them, the LORD at their head. (Micah 2:12-13)

A passage in the Gospels that has confused translators and interpreters for many years is Matthew 11:12, which in older translations says,

From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force. (Matt 11:12, RSV)

As it was translated, it sounds as if Jesus was talking about the kingdom “suffering violence” in terms of the persecution that both He and John faced. Some have also thought that Jesus was advocating a kind of violence in order to be a part of it. But the word “violence,” biazo in Greek, also can mean “forceful,” “bursting out,” or even “exlosive,” which in Hebrew is poretz. Translators now believe that instead of the kingdom being victim of violence, Jesus was describing the explosive force of the kingdom! In the NIV, this verse is now translated:

From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. (Mat 11:12)

Interestingly, Jesus appears to be alluding to a passage in Micah that was considered to be messianic in Jesus’ time:

One who breaks open the way (haporetz) will go up before them; they will break (poretz) through the gate and go out. Their King will pass through before them, the LORD at their head. (Micah 2:12-13)

The people understood that the “one who breaks open the way” (haporetz) was the messenger who would cause people to repent and be ready. This is a picture of John the Baptist. Then sheep would explode out of follow the Shepherd King, the Messiah – God Himself!

The passage is much more meaningful if we understand the imagery behind it. After grazing all day a shepherd would usually enclose his sheep in a pen made out of boulders near a cave. In the morning, the sheep would be hungry and bursting with energy, eager to get out to pasture. Suddenly, one of his men would “break open the way” by pushing aside a boulder, and the sheep would burst out of in a stampede! The shepherd would then follow them out to pasture.

This really a picture of the joy people had at coming of their Messiah. Like sheep that are stampeding out of their pen, the “sheep” of the messianic Shepherd will be exuberant at his coming. Their Shepherd, the Lord Himself, had come to save them now and forever, and walk among them as His own.


What of Ezekiel 34:1:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds;...6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them...22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.

Luke 19:9Jesus said to him, “...10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost.”

And also Malachi 3:1...Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.
2But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?

Luke 19:45When Jesus entered the temple courts, he began to drive out those who were selling.

Finally, a part of Jesus’ vocation was prophetic. Jesus, Himself, referred to Himself as being one…but when He spoke God’s message He did not say “God says, ‘X, Y, and Z’. Rather, He spoke as God. The point is that Jesus said and did things that all first century Judeans and Galileans knew as God, Himself, could only do or say.

visionary said:

Certain characteristics are unique to God.

Col 2:9 Yeshua possesses all the fullness of Deity
Heb 1:3 He is the very image of the Father
Phil 2:6 He had the form of God


Micah 5:2 A ruler would come from Bethlehem, but his goings forth were actually "from of old"
(Hebrews QEDEM), "from everlasting" (Hebrews OLAM)..90:1-4: Genesis 21:33; Isaiah 40:28; Deuteronomy 32:40

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Colossians 2:8-13

8(T)See to it that no one takes you captive through (U)philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the (V)elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
9For in Him all the (W)fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
10and in Him you have been (X)made complete, and (Y)He is the head over all (Z)rule and authority;
11and in Him (AA)you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of (AB)the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
12having been (AC)buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also (AD)raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who (AE)raised Him from the dead.
13When you were (AF)dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He (AG)made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

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Hebrews 1

1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs. 5For to which of the angels did God ever say,
"You are my Son;
today I have become your Father[a]"[b]? Or again,
"I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son"[c]? 6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
"Let all God's angels worship him."[d] 7In speaking of the angels he says,
"He makes his angels winds,
his servants flames of fire."[e] 8But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy."[f] 10He also says,
"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end."[g] 13To which of the angels did God ever say,
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet"[h]? 14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

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Philippians 2:6-10

6who, although He (K)existed in the (L)form of God, (M)did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but [a](N)emptied Himself, taking the form of a (O)bond-servant, and (P)being made in the likeness of men.
8Being found in appearance as a man, (Q)He humbled Himself by becoming (R)obedient to the point of death, even (S)death on a cross.
9(T)For this reason also, God (U)highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him (V)the name which is above every name,
10so that at the name of Jesus (W)EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of (X)those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

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Vis

I don't see any debate going on here. Pure inquiry which is part of fellowship.

anisavta said:

I don't see any debate going on here. Pure inquiry which is part of fellowship.

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Ditto.

Hi, Ani!

That's debatable.

Hey Kris!
John - you are obstreperous!

Lol

I'm the stomach in the alka seltzer commercial...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ADRgzUez1E

I can see the resemblance!