Mosaic Law binding "forever"?

Tishri1 · Jan 10, 2006

Here it is again...Forever

Exodus 27:21 - 28:1 21 "In the tent of meeting, outside the veil which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall keep it in order from evening to morning before the LORD; it shall be a perpetual statute throughout their generations for the sons of Israel.

<05769> ~l'A[ or ~l'[o (olam or olam) (761d)
Meaning: long duration, antiquity, futurity
Origin: from an unused word
Usage: all successive(m)(1), always(1), ancient(m)(13), ancient times(3), continual(m)(1), eternal(2), eternity(3), ever(7), everlasting(110), Everlasting(2), for ages(1), forever(136), forever*(65), forevermore*(1), from of old(4), lasting(m)(1), long(2), long ago(3), long past(1), long time(3), more*(2), never*(16), of old(8), permanent(10), permanently(1), perpetual(29), perpetually(1).

look at where this word is used the most...meaning forever

http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/...ber/027230.html

Quote

R Boman (1970) "Hebrew Thought Compared with Greek", pp. 151, 152:
"The commonest word for boundless time is ´olam; according to the most
widespread and likeliest explanation the word is derived from ´alam meaning
"hide; conceal". In the term ´olam is contained a designation of time
extending so far that it is lost to our sight and comprehension in darkness
and invisibility. It is characteristic of the nature of this term that it
can be used of hoary antiquity as well as of the unbounded future, thus,
´olam is not an endlessly long time but simply a boundless time... Although
in the Old Testament ´olam always means time which is boundless in certain
respect, nothing is said therein of the objective duration of astronomical
time; it is always the concern of exegesis to ask in each case how far the
author´s gaze pursued time

and Yeshua answers that question...till Heaven and Earth pass away

Matthew 5:18-19 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.

and ...

19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Liviu · Jan 10, 2006

FreezBee said:
You might want to read this (Jeremiah 31) ...

So, a new covenant that will be written in the hearts. Is the law of Moses written in anybody's heart?

Let's look at Jeremiah 31:31-34 more carefully.

"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

1. The new covenant is to be made "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah". No mention of Gentiles.

2. It says that "they will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother". We still teach.

3. It says "for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them". I didn't get the news that all or a majority of Israelites were Christian!?

It really looks like Jeremiah 31 does NOT refer to Christ's coming 2000 years ago.

Liviu · Jan 10, 2006

Tishri1 said:
Liviu if you give us a chance I bet we could clear up all of the confusion in Paul's letters too

Would it be better to start discussing whether Paul believes the Law is "fulfilled" and non-binding anymore in another thread?

I'd like to see what you have to say about it.

jgonz · Jan 10, 2006

It really does seem like Jesus is clearly stating that He is not abolishing the Law but carrying it out. But then this seems to clearly contradict Paul's letters.

Just a quicky answer for this: Paul was Jewish, a Pharisee to be exact. He never advocated dropping the Torah/Law, he was talking about the Rabbinical additions, the Oral Torah/Laws that were added onto G-d's instructions and sometimes completely contradicted the Torah/Law.

Elisheva413 · Jan 11, 2006

2 Peter 3:16 (speaking about Paul's letters) [BIBLE]as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures to their own destruction.[/BIBLE] Even Paul's own contemporaries found him difficult to understand...now weed through 2000 years of interpretation and the adversary being hard at work! You are definitely seeing some very exciting things!
Shalom~

billwald · Jan 11, 2006

Yes. The Mosiac Covenant is binding forever fore those who live in Israel. There isn't one single verse in Exo thru Lev which applies to gentiles in Chicago or to anyone's existance in the next world.

stone · Jan 11, 2006

Israel is a light unto all the nations, an example of rightousness.

this is written over and over again within the Torah.

Obediance to our father in heaven is the key to understanding his word.

Tishri1 · Jan 11, 2006

Liviu said:
Would it be better to start discussing whether Paul believes the Law is "fulfilled" and non-binding anymore in another thread?

I'd like to see what you have to say about it.

Yes Go For It!

Tishri1 · Jan 11, 2006

billwald said:
Yes. The Mosiac Covenant is binding forever fore those who live in Israel. There isn't one single verse in Exo thru Lev which applies to gentiles in Chicago or to anyone's existance in the next world.

when the Words were spoken by God on the mountain no one lived in Israel

Tishri1 · Jan 11, 2006

Leviticus 17:8-9 8 "Then you shall say to them, 'Any man from the house of Israel, or from the aliens who sojourn among them, who offers a burnt offering or sacrifice, 9 and does not bring it to the doorway of the tent of meeting to offer it to the LORD, that man also shall be cut off from his people.Leviticus 17:10 0 'And any man from the house of Israel, or from the aliens who sojourn among them, who eats any blood, I will set My face against that person who eats blood, and will cut him off from among his people. Leviticus 17:13 13 "So when any man from the sons of Israel, or from the aliens who sojourn among them, in hunting catches a beast or a bird which may be eaten, he shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth. Leviticus 19:34 34 'The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God. Leviticus 20:2 2 "You shall also say to the sons of Israel, 'Any man from the sons of Israel or from the aliens sojourning in Israel, who gives any of his offspring to Molech, shall surely be put to death; the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 22:18 18 "Speak to Aaron and to his sons and to all the sons of Israel, and say to them, 'Any man of the house of Israel or of the aliens in Israel who presents his offering, whether it is any of their votive or any of their freewill offerings, which they present to the LORD for a burnt offering-- Leviticus 25:6 6 'And all of you shall have the sabbath products of the land for food; yourself, and your male and female slaves, and your hired man and your foreign resident, those who live as aliens with youEzekiel 47:22 - 48:1 22 "And it will come about that you shall divide it by lot for an inheritance among yourselves and among the aliens who stay in your midst, who bring forth sons in your midst. And they shall be to you as the native-born among the sons of Israel; they shall be allotted an inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. 23 "And it will come about that in the tribe with which the alien stays, there you shall give him his inheritance," declares the Lord God.

all pre Jerusalem or Israel residents

OPAL · Jan 15, 2006

Liviu said:
The common teaching in Christianity as far as I know is that God's Law that was given to Moses in the Old Testament was fulfilled by Jesus and therefore doesn't apply to us Christians today. Some make a 3-part distinction in the Law and say that the civil and ceremonial laws don't apply anymore but the moral laws do apply.

However, I find the two following verses confusing. They are in the context of ceremonial law and state that the regulations shall be perpetual and forever, respectively.

Exodus 27:21 "In the tent of meeting, outside the veil which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall keep it in order from evening to morning before the LORD; it shall be a perpetual statute throughout their generations for the sons of Israel. (NASB)

Exodus 28:43 "They shall be on Aaron and on his sons when they enter the tent of meeting, or when they approach the altar to minister in the holy place, so that they do not incur guilt and die. It shall be a statute forever to him and to his descendants after him. (NASB)

Why would it say "perpetual" and "forever" if the Mosaic Law was meant to be temporary and to be fulfilled by Christ? Shouldn't it have said something like: "You shall obey these statutes until I send Messiah who will fulfill them"?

How do we reconcile these passages with the belief that Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law and it's not binding on us anymore?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
When laws don't work they change. Hebrews 7:18, "For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof."

7:19, "For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God."

8:7, "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second."

10:9, "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God, He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."

We are NOT under the dispensation of the Law, but under the dispensation of Grace.

We are under a new order. The old order of the Law had flaws. The New order of Melchisedec has none.

The Law was fulfilled by the shedding of the blood of Christ. (Hebrews 9:22,"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood: and without shedding of blood is no remission" (of sin).

We were crucified with Christ, Gal. 2:20
We were baptised into His death. Col. 2:12
We were circumcised with the circumcision made without hands in the cutting away the sins of the flesh. Col 2:11
He hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Eph 2:6.

The Law could accomplish none of this, but praise God, the bringing in of a better hope did.

APsalm 25:12, "What man is he that feareth the Lord? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose."

jgonz · Jan 15, 2006

The Law was not given for Salvation purposes, but as Instructions for holy living (which by the way, are still a good idea today.....) Salvation is through Jesus/Yeshua alone.

Tishri1 · Jan 16, 2006

rely to Opal

Opal said:
When laws don't work they change. Hebrews 7:18, "For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof."

7:19, "For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God."

my answer

Hebrews 7:15-21 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is witnessed of Him, "Thou art a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek 18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect this is in parethesis and is added by the translator), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath 21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, "The Lord has sworn And will not change His mind, 'Thou art a priest forever' "again in parenthesis);

I don't put my trust in things written in parenthesis in the Bible unless they gel with the context...this whole chapter is talking about the priesthood, and an oath that ABBA made that one should arise and scoot over the others who were there with out an oath from ABBA, it does not change the whole Law only a commandment when such a time should arise....look here this is beautiful

18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness , and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

the commandment was to replace the highpriest and the priesthood , just a single commandment not the intirety of the law; when another eternal figure arises....why? well look at the second part, the hope of a "corban" that was also eternal and not temporal would come with this Eternal Priest

the word "Draw Near" in Hebrew is "Corban" and is a word for a sacrifice that let's a person come close and draw near to ABBA , so the Eternal Priest Yeshua brings the eternal Sacrifice Corban, which is a better hope "Tikvah" meaning to wait till it happens, to stay put and rest till it happenes, ...........and this command was preseeded by an oath there for is set in place to be changed at some time in the future...

Tishri1 · Jan 16, 2006

Hebrews 8:7-8 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says, ......

Hebrews 8:12-13 12 "For I will be merciful to their iniquities, And I will remember their sins no more." 13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Hebrews 9:1 NAS Hebrews 9:1 Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary.

Hebrews 9:18 18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.

8:7, "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second."

all these scripture have the word Covenant in italics which means they are not there in the original...lets take them out and see if in the context of Priesthood (which is the context of this book) we can see something else here...

Hebrews 8:7-8 7 For if that first had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says, ......

Hebrews 8:12-13 12 "For I will be merciful to their iniquities, And I will remember their sins no more." 13 When He said, "A new ," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Hebrews 9:1 NAS Hebrews 9:1 Now even the first had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary.

Hebrews 9:18 18 Therefore even the first was not inaugurated without blood.

8:7, "For if that first had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second."

Tishri1 · Jan 16, 2006

Hebrews 8:7-8 7 For if that first Priesthood had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says, ......

Hebrews 8:12-13 12 "For I will be merciful to their iniquities, And I will remember their sins no more." 13 When He said, "A new Priesthood," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Hebrews 9:1 NAS Hebrews 9:1 Now even the first Priesthood had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary.

Hebrews 9:18 18 Therefore even the first Priesthood was not inaugurated without blood.

8:7, "For if that first Priesthood

Click to expand...

had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second."

if you have a bible go look at the context it fits even better with those italisized words Covenant removed from the text

Tishri1 · Jan 16, 2006

so what is true is that the first priesthood has been removed and is now useless next to the eternal Priest with his eternal Corban ....but the Torah(God's Instruction) has not been changed, as he fortold us that this one command would be changed someday when it was no longer needed, but we don't throw the baby out with the bath water....as Jesus said

Matthew 5:17-19 17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. 19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Tishri1 · Jan 16, 2006

OPAL said:
APsalm 25:12, "What man is he that feareth the Lord? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose."

Psalm 25:4-5 Make me know Thy ways, O LORD; Teach me Thy paths. 5 Lead me in Thy truth and teach me, For Thou art the God of my salvation; For Thee I wait all the day.
Psalm 25:8-10 8 Good and upright is the LORD; Therefore He instructs sinners in the way. 9 He leads the humble in justice, And He teaches the humble His way. 10 All the paths of the LORD are lovingkindness and truth To those who keep His covenant and His testimonies.
Psalm 25:12-15 12 Who is the man who fears the LORD? He will instruct him in the way he should choose. 13 His soul will abide in prosperity, And his descendants will inherit the land. 14 The secret of the LORD is for those who fear Him, And He will make them know His covenant. 15 My eyes are continually toward the LORD, For He will pluck my feet out of the net.

OPAL · Jan 16, 2006

Hi Tishri1,
So am I to understand that you do not believe that Christ is the Great High Priest after the order of Melchisedec? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the prophecied Messiah, or do you think that he is still to come?

I Do not say that the law was abolished. I say that it was fulfilled by the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ.

Romans 10:1-10, "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, * that the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? Or, Who shall descend into the deep? But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

* James 2:10, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one, he is guilty of all."

Humbly I left out all that was in italics and the words in pararenthesis and it still says the same thing, Jesus is the way, the truth and the light. He is our great High Priest after the order of Melchisedec.

jgonz · Jan 16, 2006

I know for a fact that Tishri believes that Yeshua/Jesus is the Messiah.

jgonz · Jan 16, 2006

Matthew 5:18-19
18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.
19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Trying to say that Jesus fulfilled the entire Torah/Law by His shed blood doesn't make sense. Obviously in this passage in Matthew He says the Law ISN'T going away until all is accomplished (or until heaven and earth pass away in other translations). Not all has been accomplished (and heaven and earth haven't passed away yet) so, well, there it is. lol

Mosaic Law binding "forever"?

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