Mosaic Law binding "forever"?

[Liviu]

The common teaching in Christianity as far as I know is that God's Law that was given to Moses in the Old Testament was fulfilled by Jesus and therefore doesn't apply to us Christians today. Some make a 3-part distinction in the Law and say that the civil and ceremonial laws don't apply anymore but the moral laws do apply.

However, I find the two following verses confusing. They are in the context of ceremonial law and state that the regulations shall be perpetual and forever, respectively.

Exodus 27:21 "In the tent of meeting, outside the veil which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall keep it in order from evening to morning before the LORD; it shall be a perpetual statute throughout their generations for the sons of Israel. (NASB)

Exodus 28:43 "They shall be on Aaron and on his sons when they enter the tent of meeting, or when they approach the altar to minister in the holy place, so that they do not incur guilt and die. It shall be a statute forever to him and to his descendants after him. (NASB)


Why would it say "perpetual" and "forever" if the Mosaic Law was meant to be temporary and to be fulfilled by Christ? Shouldn't it have said something like: "You shall obey these statutes until I send Messiah who will fulfill them"?

How do we reconcile these passages with the belief that Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law and it's not binding on us anymore?

 

[dcyates]

The common teaching in Christianity as far as I know is that God's Law that was given to Moses in the Old Testament was fulfilled by Jesus and therefore doesn't apply to us Christians today. Some make a 3-part distinction in the Law and say that the civil and ceremonial laws don't apply anymore but the moral laws do apply.

However, I find the two following verses confusing. They are in the context of ceremonial law and state that the regulations shall be perpetual and forever, respectively.

Exodus 27:21 "In the tent of meeting, outside the veil which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall keep it in order from evening to morning before the LORD; it shall be a perpetual statute throughout their generations for the sons of Israel. (NASB)

Exodus 28:43 "They shall be on Aaron and on his sons when they enter the tent of meeting, or when they approach the altar to minister in the holy place, so that they do not incur guilt and die. It shall be a statute forever to him and to his descendants after him. (NASB)


Why would it say "perpetual" and "forever" if the Mosaic Law was meant to be temporary and to be fulfilled by Christ? Shouldn't it have said something like: "You shall obey these statutes until I send Messiah who will fulfill them"?

How do we reconcile these passages with the belief that Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law and it's not binding on us anymore?

The Exodus 27.21 text tells us that the setting up of the olive oil lamps outside the entrance to the Holy of Holies applies to Aaron and his sons, "and to his descendants." In other words, to the Aaronic priesthood. To call this "a perpetual statute' is to underline both its liturgical and symbolic importance. In this context, light, to the ancient Hebrew mind, stood not only for God's presence, but also for the safety and security that his presence meant for the people of Israel.

Similarly, Exodus 28.43 declares that the linen undergarments that Aaron and his sons were to wear "when they enter the Tent of Meeting or when they approach the altar to officiate in the sanctuary" was to be done "for all time for him and for his offspring to come," so as to "cover their nakedness" (v. 42). That worshipers might catch sight of a priest's privates was a distinct possibility in that people often had to gather up their robes in order to climb the Temple steps (and this was at a time when people didn't normally wear underwear). Again, to refer to this stipulation as being "for all time" is to highlight its significance. After all, catching even a glimpse of your priest's genitals is hardly conducive to a serious, worshipful experience.

Hope this helps.

 

[FreezBee]

The Exodus 27.21 text tells us that the setting up of the olive oil lamps outside the entrance to the Holy of Holies applies to Aaron and his sons, "and to his descendants." In other words, to the Aaronic priesthood. To call this "a perpetual statute' is to underline both its liturgical and symbolic importance. In this context, light, to the ancient Hebrew mind, stood not only for God's presence, but also for the safety and security that his presence meant for the people of Israel.

Similarly, Exodus 28.43 declares that the linen undergarments that Aaron and his sons were to wear "when they enter the Tent of Meeting or when they approach the altar to officiate in the sanctuary" was to be done "for all time for him and for his offspring to come," so as to "cover their nakedness" (v. 42). That worshipers might catch sight of a priest's privates was a distinct possibility in that people often had to gather up their robes in order to climb the Temple steps (and this was at a time when people didn't normally wear underwear). Again, to refer to this stipulation as being "for all time" is to highlight its significance. After all, catching even a glimpse of your priest's genitals is hardly conducive to a serious, worshipful experience.

dcyates;
I read your post to imply that "a perpetual statute" and "for all time" only refers to the importance of the commandments, not to how long thet were to be observed. This may be ok, but can you back this interpretation up with a reference to the Old Testament?

And have I understood you correctly here?


- FreezBee

 

[stone]

I'll add a little to this.


1st of all, Yeshua said that he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.

fulfill:

1. To bring into actuality; effect: fulfilled their promises.
2. To carry out (an order, for example).
3. To measure up to; satisfy. See Synonyms at perform. See Synonyms at satisfy.
4. To bring to an end; complete.

***

the 4th definition of the word fulfill means brings to an end, but Y-shua said he did not come to abolish. this removes that meaning of the word. You are left with the other definitions of fulfill.

The pharisees had made so many changes to the law that it was no longer the law that was given down to man from mt. sinai. Just as politicians make amendments to laws, so did the pharisee's make changes to the law to the point to where it was no longer what g-d had intended. Y-shua came to bring it back into perspective, to carry out the true meaning of the law. He brought it into actuallity. Y-shua lived the true meaning of the law as it was meant to be from the begining at Mt. Sinai.

He said he did not come to abolish it.

 

[Espada]

This is an area that divided even the apostles, look at Acts 15 and the council of Jerusalem. Nobody suggested that the Jews should ignore the law, so I guess Jews should still be keeping the law, as for the gentile believers, the following was decided (Acts 15)

19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=21283762#_ftn1 newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=21283762#_ftnref1The Holy Bible : New International Version. 1996, c1984 . Zondervan: Grand Rapids

Hope that makes it clear.

 

[Yovel]

Matthew 5:17-18 “Think not that I have come to destroy the law (teaching), or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily, I say unto you. Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or on tittle shall in no wise pas from the law, till all be fulfilled.

In Matthew 5:17, Jesus claims he has no intention of abolishing or suspending the Law. For most Christians, this comes as a shock. After all, did not the Apostle Paul say, “Christ is the end of the Law: (Romans 10:40)? Jesus’ statement seems such a contradiction that many Christian commentators have tried to explain it away by suggesting that his words do not really mean what they seem to mean. Their attempts are futile. The meaning of Jesus’ words is clear. As long as the world lasts, he goes on to say in verse 18, the Law will last. Here Jesus is in complete agreement with the sages: “Everything has an end –heaven and earth have an end—except one thing which has no end. And what is that? The Law” (Genesis Rabbah 10:1); “No letter will ever be abolished from the Law” (Exdous Rabbah 6:1); “Should all the nations of the world unite to uproot one word of the Law, they would be unable to do it” (Leviticus Rabbah 19:2).

Other commentators have emphasized the word “fulfill” in verse 17. According to their interpretation, something was lacking in the Law. Jesus completed or fulfilled the Law. He did not do away with the Law. He simply filled up what was lacking. And what was it that was lacking in the Law? The Messiah. Jesus fulfilled the Law, that is, he fulfilled the messianic prophecies found in the Law (and the Prophets). In other words, in Jesus, the Law reached its zenith. Rather than being destroyed, it now existed as God originally intended. It has come to an end in one form, but continued in another, more perfect form.

This is from the book "Understanding the Difficuld Words of Jesus" by David Bivin and Roy Blizzard, Jr. Pages 109-111.

When you interpret Hebrew into Greek then into English alot of what the Hewbrew says is made unintelligable. That is one of the main reasons Christains think Yeshuah did away with the Law. Now you now He didn't.

 

[stone]

Paul was attempting to make clear to the gentiles that works according to the law is not what will save you from your sins. He did teach Torah obediance till the day he died. Y-shua and repentance can save you from your sins, and Y-shua made it clear time and time again, when he healed folks from their sins, he said, you are free from your sins, now go and sin no more.

Over time the gentiles would learn more and more about Y-shua and his law. This was just one letter of many. Within one letter you do not write an entire course study of how to obey of the word of the l-rd. It takes time, at this point in time he said to do these things for now, next sabbath you will learn more. These conversions are done the same way today.

 

[Soon Rev 22:11-12]

How is the term "forever" understood in the case of certain Hebrew servants?"His master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever." Ex. 21:6.​

NOTE. - He could not serve his master longer than he lived.

For how long a time did Samuel's mother lend him to the Lord to serve in the temple?
"I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and there abide forever." "Therefore also I have lent him to the Lord; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord." 1 Sam. 1:22, 28.
NOTE. - In this case it is definitely stated to be ''as long as he liveth." Had Samuel lived only a week or a month, the "forever" would have been limited to a week or a month. It is evident that the term "forever" often means "limited duration."

How long was Jonah carried in the whale's belly through the depths?
"I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me forever." Jonah 2:6.
NOTE. - In this case "forever" is limited to three days.

In general, the word aion is translated: forever. However its real meaning is "Age". There are actually two meanings for the word "Age"

1. "Age" can mean a human lifetime, or life itself. So it can be a limited time, as long as someone is going to live.
2. "Age" can also mean an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, or an eternity. So it can mean forever.

 

[Tishri1]

The common teaching in Christianity as far as I know is that God's Law that was given to Moses in the Old Testament was fulfilled by Jesus and therefore doesn't apply to us Christians today. Some make a 3-part distinction in the Law and say that the civil and ceremonial laws don't apply anymore but the moral laws do apply.

However, I find the two following verses confusing. They are in the context of ceremonial law and state that the regulations shall be perpetual and forever, respectively.

Exodus 27:21 "In the tent of meeting, outside the veil which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall keep it in order from evening to morning before the LORD; it shall be a perpetual statute throughout their generations for the sons of Israel. (NASB)

Exodus 28:43 "They shall be on Aaron and on his sons when they enter the tent of meeting, or when they approach the altar to minister in the holy place, so that they do not incur guilt and die. It shall be a statute forever to him and to his descendants after him. (NASB)


Why would it say "perpetual" and "forever" if the Mosaic Law was meant to be temporary and to be fulfilled by Christ? Shouldn't it have said something like: "You shall obey these statutes until I send Messiah who will fulfill them"?

How do we reconcile these passages with the belief that Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law and it's not binding on us anymore?

Liviu, you are really onto something and all I have to say to your post is yes and amen, let the Word of God be true and every man a liar (not that I am saying we are all liars....you know what I mean ) And then that scripture opens up a huge can of worms doesn't it? Well let it! God is capable of bringing even this word to pass...and He will....and He is

Romans 3:4 4 May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, "That Thou mightest be justified in Thy words, And mightest prevail when Thou art judged."

 

[Tishri1]

I'll add a little to this.


1st of all, Yeshua said that he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.

fulfill:

1. To bring into actuality; effect: fulfilled their promises.
2. To carry out (a order, for example).
3. To measure up to; satisfy. See Synonyms at perform. See Synonyms at satisfy.
4. To bring to an end; complete.

***

the 4th definition of the word fulfill means brings to an end, but Y-shua said he did not come to abolish. this removes that meaning of the word. You are left with the other definitions of fulfill.

The pharisees had made so many changes to the law that it was no longer the law that was given down to man from mt. sinai. Just as politicians make amendments to laws, so did the pharisee's make changes to the law to the point to where it was no longer what g-d had intended. Y-shua came to bring it back into perspective, to carry out the true meaning of the law. He brought it into actuallity. Y-shua lived the true meaning of the law as it was meant to be from the begining at Mt. Sinai.

He said he did not come to abolish it.

amen stone, very well put

 

[Tishri1]

Forever

Exodus 27:21 - 28:1 21 "In the tent of meeting, outside the veil which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall keep it in order from evening to morning before the LORD; it shall be a perpetual statute throughout their generations for the sons of Israel.

<05769> ~l'A[ or ~l'[o (olam or olam) (761d)
Meaning: long duration, antiquity, futurity
Origin: from an unused word
Usage: all successive(m)(1), always(1), ancient(m)(13), ancient times(3), continual(m)(1), eternal(2), eternity(3), ever(7), everlasting(110), Everlasting(2), for ages(1), forever(136), forever*(65), forevermore*(1), from of old(4), lasting(m)(1), long(2), long ago(3), long past(1), long time(3), more*(2), never*(16), of old(8), permanent(10), permanently(1), perpetual(29), perpetually(1).


look at where this word is used the most...meaning forever

http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2005-November/027230.html

R Boman (1970) "Hebrew Thought Compared with Greek", pp. 151, 152:
"The commonest word for boundless time is ´olam; according to the most
widespread and likeliest explanation the word is derived from ´alam meaning
"hide; conceal". In the term ´olam is contained a designation of time
extending so far that it is lost to our sight and comprehension in darkness
and invisibility. It is characteristic of the nature of this term that it
can be used of hoary antiquity as well as of the unbounded future, thus,
´olam is not an endlessly long time but simply a boundless time... Although
in the Old Testament ´olam always means time which is boundless in certain
respect, nothing is said therein of the objective duration of astronomical
time; it is always the concern of exegesis to ask in each case how far the
author´s gaze pursued time

and Yeshua answers that question...till Heaven and Earth pass away

Matthew 5:18-19 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.

and ...

19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[FreezBee]

In general, the word aion is translated: forever. However its real meaning is "Age". There are actually two meanings for the word "Age"

And "aion" is an Hebrew word?

The pharisees had made so many changes to the law that it was no longer the law that was given down to man from mt. sinai. Just as politicians make amendments to laws, so did the pharisee's make changes to the law to the point to where it was no longer what g-d had intended. Y-shua came to bring it back into perspective, to carry out the true meaning of the law. He brought it into actuallity. Y-shua lived the true meaning of the law as it was meant to be from the begining at Mt. Sinai.

He said he did not come to abolish it.

Yes, that's common interpretation, and seeing the arguments between Jesus and the pharisees, it appears that this interpretation is correct. Still, NOBODY keeps the law, excepr under heavy re-interpretations. E.g., all worship to be centralized in the temple in Jerusalem, how many temples are there right now? There are two mosques! So apparently God wants us all to become Moslems - in other words, be EXTREMELY careful with all that law worship.

You might want to read this

31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.


32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "
declares the LORD.

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people. 34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

So, a new covenant that will be written in the hearts. Is the law of Moses written in anybody's heart?


- FreezBee

 

[Soon Rev 22:11-12]

And "aion" is an Hebrew word?

Actually, there were two different parts to that post. It looks as if one is directly related to the other. The quotes were from the OT, but aion would be from the NT. (It could be that the LXX, Greek version of the OT, uses aion.)

 

[jgonz]

FreezBee, you're right~ the New Covenant hasn't happened yet because we are still having to teach G-d's Laws/Instructions to everyone...

Still, NOBODY keeps the law, excepr under heavy re-interpretations. E.g., all worship to be centralized in the temple in Jerusalem, how many temples are there right now? There are two mosques! So apparently God wants us all to become Moslems - in other words, be EXTREMELY careful with all that law worship.

If you are talking about heavy Rabbinical laws that add to G-d's original Instructions (ie: Torah) then you're right. You're also right that sacrifices can only be performed in the Temple in Jerusalem. SO, no one is sacrificing now. But, prophecy shows us that there Will be a Temple rebuilt in Jerusalem and there Will be sacrifices reinstated at that time.

As to "keeping the Law" at this time, there are a lot of us that keep as much of Torah as we can~ as we Biblically can with no Temple. Also take into account that there are different instructions for men, women, priests, etc. not every Instruction is for every person.

 

[Torah]

Espada
This is an area that divided even the apostles, look at Acts 15 and the council of Jerusalem. Nobody suggested that the Jews should ignore the law, so I guess Jews should still be keeping the law, as for the gentile believers, the following was decided (Acts 15)

&#65279;19&#65279; “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. &#65279;20&#65279; Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. &#65279;21&#65279; For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

Why do people think that when a Gentile turns to G-d that it was a different G-d than the Jew followed with different Rules / laws to follow? After all there was only one book that the Gentiles as well as the Jew could learn from when this scripture was Writhen. And that was the book writhen by Moses and was read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”



&#65279;19&#65279; “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. &#65279;20&#65279; Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. &#65279;21&#65279; For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”





The Gentile had to start learning something about Torah and it’s laws on living a

G-dly life from there Jewish brother. So where was the Gentile to start?

1) They(The Jew) did not want to over burden or make it difficult for the Gentile. After all, all this Torah stuff was new to a lot of the Gentile.

2) He (Gentile) must have fellowship/table fellowship with the Jew. So he could learn about Torah.

3)Being that there was not a KJB to be taught from the only way a Gentile could learn was to go to synagogues on every Sabbath.”

I see that the council of Jerusalem was giving the Gentiles there baby steps in how to learn what the Jew had been practicing for a very long time.





“We should not make it difficult [to deal with,to do, carry out, Torah] for the Gentiles who are turning to God”

Difficult:. Hard to deal with, hard to do, make, or carry out.







“Gentiles who are turning to God”. What does it mean to “Turn to”?

Turn to: to apply oneself, to work: act vigorously.



Food; To the Jew and all that live around the Jew knows that if it’s not what G-d list as things to eat then it’s not called food. Not so for the Gentile / Greek,



It could read as this.

19&#65279;“It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult [hard to do or carry out this new life style] for the Gentiles who are turning [applying oneself] to God. &#65279;20&#65279;Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from [kosher] food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. &#65279;21&#65279;For Moses[Torah] has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”[And the Gentile can learn more at the synagogues.]
Shalom.

 

[Liviu]

Again, to refer to this stipulation as being "for all time" is to highlight its significance. After all, catching even a glimpse of your priest's genitals is hardly conducive to a serious, worshipful experience.

I can't agree with this. It seems too clear that the passage is meant literally. And isn't the severity of the punishment the logical way to highlight a law's significance? Like life in prison/death penalty for a murderer and a fine for a parking violation...

 

[Liviu]

1st of all, Yeshua said that he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.

fulfill:

1. To bring into actuality; effect: fulfilled their promises.
2. To carry out (an order, for example).
3. To measure up to; satisfy.
4. To bring to an end; complete.

***

the 4th definition of the word fulfill means brings to an end, but Y-shua said he did not come to abolish. this removes that meaning of the word. You are left with the other definitions of fulfill. ...

He said he did not come to abolish it.

WOW! This is why it's so important to define the terms we use. I think this is why I've always been confused about the verse. It makes no sense for Jesus to mean in Mat 5:17: "Do not think that I came to do away with (abolish) the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to do away with (abolish) the Law, but to bring the Law to an end (fulfill).

It makes much more sense if the verse is understood as: "Do not think that I came to do away with (abolish) the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to do away with (abolish) the Law, but to carry it out (fulfill).

And if we subscribe to the first interpretation that because Jesus fulfilled the Law, we're not bound to it anymore, does it also mean that the prophetic books of the Bible don't apply to us anymore either?

It really does seem like Jesus is clearly stating that He is not abolishing the Law but carrying it out. But then this seems to clearly contradict Paul's letters.

 

[Liviu]

How is the term "forever" understood in the case of certain Hebrew servants?"His master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever." Ex. 21:6.​

NOTE. - He could not serve his master longer than he lived.

For how long a time did Samuel's mother lend him to the Lord to serve in the temple?
"I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and there abide forever." "Therefore also I have lent him to the Lord; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord." 1 Sam. 1:22, 28.
NOTE. - In this case it is definitely stated to be ''as long as he liveth." Had Samuel lived only a week or a month, the "forever" would have been limited to a week or a month. It is evident that the term "forever" often means "limited duration."

How long was Jonah carried in the whale's belly through the depths?
"I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me forever." Jonah 2:6.
NOTE. - In this case "forever" is limited to three days.

In general, the word aion is translated: forever. However its real meaning is "Age". There are actually two meanings for the word "Age"

1. "Age" can mean a human lifetime, or life itself. So it can be a limited time, as long as someone is going to live.
2. "Age" can also mean an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, or an eternity. So it can mean forever.

Well, when you say "forever" regarding a human activity, it is obvious and automatically assumed that it's until the day of death. And regarding the Jonah passage, he is relating how he felt inside the animal. I would say it's similar to starving people recounting how it took "forever" to find food.

But look at those passages. You have "perpetual statutes throughout their generations" and "It shall be a statute forever to him and to his descendants after him." It's very hard to interpret "throughout their generations" and "a statute forever" as "limited duration". If it was meant for a limited duration, why doesn't the author indicate so?

 

[Tishri1]

And "aion" is an Hebrew word?

actually the word is "Olam" in Hebrew (see my post above)...and the commentary on the Hebrew word Olam is very good(see my post above) no doubt the scriptures in the OT were ment to be observed FOREVER

 

[Tishri1]

It really does seem like Jesus is clearly stating that He is not abolishing the Law but carrying it out. But then this seems to clearly contradict Paul's letters.

Liviu if you give us a chance I bet we could clear up all of the confusion in Paul's letters too