Mormons

[UMP]

I've been watching this special from PBS on the Mormons. If you get the chance, it's very interesting to watch. I have never had Mormon missionaries sit down and speak with me. I keep thinking I'll tell them that Jesus Christ said "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the father but by me." Not "by me and Joseph Smith."
What would you guys say to them??

 

[GrinningDwarf]

C'mon in!! Let's talk about it over a cup of coffee!!

(If you know anything about Mormons, you'll get this!)

Seriously...

I attended the funeral of a friend's mom once. She was a Mormon, and most of the service was indestinguishable from a Christian ceremony...until the final speaker got up. The topic of her entire address was that salvation is most certainly not by grace alone, but is something that must be worked for. I'd simply start where we always start...the doctrines of grace.

 

[bradfordl]

What would you guys say to them??

Had lots of conversations with them. One of my favorite sports! The gist of what I say is this;

"Leave that synagogue of Satan that blasphemes the name and character of my Redeemer, and beg God to forgive you for partaking in such grievous sin against His beloved Son."

I like the subtle approach.

Then I ask them if they really know the history of their church, how Smith was a convicted con artist who glommed on to the periphery of the Millerite/adventist wackiness of his day to run the slickest scam ever..... Usually by then they're sliding sideways out the door, smiling and thanking me for my time.

If we get past that point I'll pull out my bible and start going over the verses pertaining to Christ's deity, but that's pretty rare, and it always sends them scurrying away.

I have the most pity on the real young ones out paying their church dues. What a sorrow.

 

[heymikey80]

Honestly? Romans 4:4-5

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:4-5
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And then be prepared to argue this over and over and over. Also ran:

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Gal 3:1-3
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Maybe you'll convince one of my relatives out of Mormonism. Please care to try. Get them ruffled; don't get yourself ruffled. You rely on a Savior Who will carry you through death itself. They believe they got sprung from a spiritual prison by a guy who wants them to work righteousness from now on. It's quite a difference if you can please enlighten them.

 

[UMP]

Thanks all.
Very good information!

 

[Elderone]

The Christian Research Institute (CRI) has many books on the cults. Check this address and search on Mormons.
http://www.equip.org/site/apps/ka/e...LQL0MAJfKTLYNzFcJQIXPAIaKTI7NCK9ITKdMMIlL3IjL

May God give you patience while evangelizing to them.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

The Christian Research Institute (CRI) has many books on the cults. Check this address and search on Mormons.
http://www.equip.org/site/apps/ka/e...LQL0MAJfKTLYNzFcJQIXPAIaKTI7NCK9ITKdMMIlL3IjL

May God give you patience while evangelizing to them.

If I may offer an observation...

If you are going to talk to Mormons and you want to be armed with anything beyond the Word of God...and this can actually be very helpful if you are going to spend much time doing it...you really should at least be familiar with the LDS source materials themselves. Nothing will bring progress to a crashing halt quicker than telling a Mormon what he believes because of something you read in Hank Hanegraff's or Ron Brown's books. That would be kinda like folks who try to tell us Reformed folks what we believe because of what they read in Dave Hunt's book. This isn't to say that the CRI resources aren't helpful, because they are, but if you want to do this consistently you would need to use the CRI resources as introduction material to your own education and then move on to the LDS sources themselves.

I have a little experience in this area.

 

[bradfordl]

you really should at least be familiar with the LDS source materials themselves.

I dunno, GD, seems a waste of good study time to me. I have some knowledge of Morman belief just out of curiosity, but its very hokey and indefensible. My position is that the Word of God is the best source of reasons for the hope that lies within me. When they come to me, I let them explain their beliefs to me, and counter them from scripture. I don't know if it does any good. I always just hope that seeds are planted in the minds of those who are elect, the rest won't hear anyway.

Most of the time they have no real defense and shag. My take is that they're out fishing for the gullible, and they seem to quickly decide there's not gonna be any bites in this pond and move onto the next. Which is one reason among many that I find myself resisting the feeling of strong detestation for these automaton charlatans. They demean and insult Christ, and they go about dutifully netting suckers and wreaking havoc on the few elect that get temporarily caught up in it.

I say use morman writings to wrap fish or kindle campfires, and defend the gospel from the Word.

 

[Elderone]

I have a little experience in this area.

I defer to GD as my experience with the Mormons is very limited.

Which is one reason among many that I find myself resisting the feeling of strong detestation for these automaton charlatans.

I have the same feelings toward them as bradfordl, but JW's more so as they will try to break up families if the husband or wife decide they aren't interested and drop out. Don't know what the LDSers do under these circumstances.

Here are some quotes from the introduction of my 1981 copy of The Book of Mormon, Another Testament of Jesus Christ.

The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible...

comparable???

...Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and that all who will come to him and obey the laws and ordinances of his gospel may be saved

Notice the word Him and His are not capitalized, and may be saved.

Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: "I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would be nearer to God to abiding by its precepts, than by any other book"

No shrinking violet that Joseph Smith

 

[GrinningDwarf]

I dunno, GD, seems a waste of good study time to me. I have some knowledge of Morman belief just out of curiosity, but its very hokey and indefensible. My position is that the Word of God is the best source of reasons for the hope that lies within me. When they come to me, I let them explain their beliefs to me, and counter them from scripture. I don't know if it does any good. I always just hope that seeds are planted in the minds of those who are elect, the rest won't hear anyway.

Most of the time they have no real defense and shag. My take is that they're out fishing for the gullible, and they seem to quickly decide there's not gonna be any bites in this pond and move onto the next. Which is one reason among many that I find myself resisting the feeling of strong detestation for these automaton charlatans. They demean and insult Christ, and they go about dutifully netting suckers and wreaking havoc on the few elect that get temporarily caught up in it.

I say use morman writings to wrap fish or kindle campfires, and defend the gospel from the Word.

What you are saying here is absolutly true, and sticking to the Word is a great way...the best way...to go. However, when I saw the CRI link, I just wanted to point out that it's not a good idea to base your apologetic merely on what you read by Christian books on Mormonism. I've done that, and Mormons can spot when you do that and say "Well, that's not really what we're saying." Then you can get into a gnarly furball over what they really do mean to say. That was when I decided that if I'm going to witness to Mormons, or JWs, or...others (who I suppose I can't name because of the forum rules

)... and use other sources besides Scripture, then I need to use the sources and documents from those beliefs and not solely Christian interpretations of those beliefs.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Here are some quotes from the introduction of my 1981 copy of The Book of Mormon, Another Testament of Jesus Christ.

comparable???

Notice the word Him and His are not capitalized, and may be saved.

No shrinking violet that Joseph Smith

Bravo!!! This is exactly what I mean about referring to LDS source materials!!

 

[heymikey80]

I dunno, GD, seems a waste of good study time to me. I have some knowledge of Morman belief just out of curiosity, but its very hokey and indefensible. My position is that the Word of God is the best source of reasons for the hope that lies within me. When they come to me, I let them explain their beliefs to me, and counter them from scripture. I don't know if it does any good. I always just hope that seeds are planted in the minds of those who are elect, the rest won't hear anyway.

Both schemes can yield benefit, but yes, I far, far prefer limiting discussion to what the Bible says. And let's set aside examining what the Bible says and debunk their basis for mistrusting it, first.

Unfortunately most all of them don't know the first thing about the history of the Bible. They don't know about how close existing manuscripts are to the original (fragments to within 50 years; full NT books to within a hundred years). They don't know that we have the Bible in the original language; that "translated correctly" is a complete red herring, we can read the Bible in the original language. They don't know ... basic data you know.

They see the Bible like they see the Book of Mormon -- and often like many American Christians do: a vast quantity of nice uplifting devotional stories set in a faraway land, a mythos on which to base their view of God.

Most of the time they have no real defense and shag. My take is that they're out fishing for the gullible, and they seem to quickly decide there's not gonna be any bites in this pond and move onto the next. Which is one reason among many that I find myself resisting the feeling of strong detestation for these automaton charlatans. They demean and insult Christ, and they go about dutifully netting suckers and wreaking havoc on the few elect that get temporarily caught up in it.

They are. But they are not themselves discipled to an extreme depth. At one point I engaged some of them at length over this, cranked up the volume to get their mentors involved in the Biblical discussion. And yes, they left permanently when they couldn't answer certain points. But this is the point. We have an obligation to spread this message. Their missionaries saw the basic message. They saw this was a showstopper. They knew it. I've often mentioned to God about them in later years, because they saw the glimmer of the truth. But that's the point, isn't it?

Your missionaries are doing this according to a script. Get them off the script. Connect with them like Jesus would connect with the woman in adultery, the woman at the well, or Paul would connect with people. Listen for points of contact. The Bible is a massive point of contact! And get them to investigate this "good book" for themselves and wonder whether the LDS church got it right.

I wouldn't attack the people. They have a prophet's status. Go after the statements of the church. Get their interest up in the Bible's trustworthiness. And then spring its message of the Gospel over against the Book of Mormon. Why should you listen to that source? This trustworthy source is contradicting them.

Turn the tables. Become the missionary. Win them to doubt about their falsehood. Play the harp strings on the Gospel.

I say use morman writings to wrap fish or kindle campfires, and defend the gospel from the Word.

I say work with them as springboards, especially the linchpin arguments they have to present as missionaries to every single person on the way.
"All the churches are wrong." "How about yours?"
"By faith alone is a pernicious doctrine." "Yet Paul states it flatly. How can you deny Rom 3:26-28, Rom 4:4?"
"Inasmuch as it is translated correctly." "OK, here's an interlinear so you can see what the word was originally, and what it means woodenly. How can you say it denies what it says explicitly?"

Just get one point through. Drive it like a piton into the rock face of their faith. Can you imagine how many times your points contradicting the LDS position will be repeated again and again in their minds, if you just put it there? They're missionaries! Every day they go out and have to say this stuff again & again. If by the Spirit your words cut to the heart, by the Spirit their hearts will be awake to it. And it'll chase them.