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You are in a logical quandry. How does something that is created become "uncreated"? Imortal =/= uncreated. You just made that up to fit your point of view.It doesn't matter if it is created or uncreated. God can move created to immortal, which = uncreated. It's no big deal for God to do that.
So we are going to say substance = substance, but we need to use this definition properly, so that we don't separate the Persons, and we don't deny them their own distinct personhood. This is the best definition of having your cake and eating it too.
If substance is like essence and essence is like divinity, I can understand. They are all divine. They all share the same divinity. The same divinity does not divide the persons and it does not deny each of them their own personhood. So we can almost come to agreement if divinity = substance = essence.
OK that is that about their internal relation. What about their external relation?
The created doesn't really become uncreated. But the net result is exactly the same.You are in a logical quandry. How does something that is created become "uncreated"? Imortal =/= uncreated. You just made that up to fit your point of view.
How many times do I have to repeat this scripture that proves beyond any doubt that Jesus had a perfect, resurrected body of flesh and bone and spirit. (see Luke 24:36)If it's in the Bible, then you would have scriptural support, but you do not.
I never said God was created.It is a huge deal to Christians, God is not created.
And there is no uncreated where God is concerned. That is the oddest thing I have ever heard, God becomes uncreated. Nice theology there.
I think you need to start providing some kind of scriptural support because this sounds made up.
The created doesn't really become uncreated. But the net result is exactly the same.
The only difference between uncreated and created is the immortal aspects of the uncreated. But if God can change the created into an immortal being anyway, in affect you are as immortal as the uncreated being.
It took you a liitle longer to enjoy the immortal aspects that the uncreated have enjoyed for longer, but you are now both immortal and at this point, whether you were uncreated or created it does not matter.
It is Mormon doctrine and it is also biblical doctrine.This is Mormon doctrine.
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So their internal relation cannot be seen or touched etc. Their internal substance/essence cannot be seen or touched etc.
"Substance = substance"? Er...okay.
And it's not 'having your cake and eating it too'. It's how the concept has been understood by Christians ever since we began using this terminology. Hence those who used the same terminology but with a different understanding were cast out because they were not adhering to the common faith as it had been received (e.g., Paul of Samosata, as mentioned earlier), but instead preaching their own definition, much like you seem to be trying to do.
Well there has to be some reason I keep writing "substance/essence" and "they share one and the same divinity", and other things like that...if you'd rather use equal signs, that's fine with me.
What about it? 'Ousia' (and really any of its derivatives, either Orthodox or heterodox) is about their essence/substance, which necessarily deals with internal matters since one's essence is internal (you can't see it, touch it, etc.), so none of this says anything about their external anything. That's a different conversation, and not one that has any bearing on the conversation you and I have been trying to have in this thread.
The Bible says that after this life on earth that our spirits and souls go on to eternal life. So I'm not into this uncreated or mortal as in we stop existing. God clearly made part of us immortal from the start. What returns to dust/earth is our bodies.It is Mormon doctrine and it is also biblical doctrine.
But it is also God-can-do-anything doctrine. Can God take a created mortal being and through the resurrection process transform that creation into a immortal perfect being? Go ahead and answer me yes or no and then I will finish my thought. Thanks
What the Bible says is that the Father is Spirit and must be worshipped in spirit and truth. Spirit being on a spiritual level through prayer, worship, ect and truth being the Word of God and what we are taught by the Holy Spirit and through the Bible.So their internal relation cannot be seen or touched etc. Their internal substance/essence cannot be seen or touched etc.
OK, none of this says anything about their external anything. That's a different conversation.
So let's have a discussion of their external relation. Can Their external relation be seen or touched?
I'm not sure that you can easily distinguish between what is Biblical doctrine and what is Mormon doctrine. It seems to me on some level the two begin to blend together. Which is why I think it is so hard for you to understand pure, Biblical concepts and truth.It is Mormon doctrine and it is also biblical doctrine.
But it is also God-can-do-anything doctrine. Can God take a created mortal being and through the resurrection process transform that creation into a immortal perfect being? Go ahead and answer me yes or no and then I will finish my thought. Thanks
So let's have a discussion of their external relation. Can Their external relation be seen or touched?
How would you know, you have never read the BOM, so you can't give an opinion.I'm not sure that you can easily distinguish between what is Biblical doctrine and what is Mormon doctrine. It seems to me on some level the two begin to blend together. Which is why I think it is so hard for you to understand pure, Biblical concepts and truth.
That is just a reality to being Mormon though if you are going to mix Mormon books with God's Word. You will get confused. They are not alike.
How would you know, you have never read the BOM, so you can't give an opinion.
Just because Jesus had a ressurected body while He was still on earth (He had to otherwise they would not have recognized His form), that does not mean that He stayed in a body after He FULLY left earth.How many times do I have to repeat this scripture that proves beyond any doubt that Jesus had a perfect, resurrected body of flesh and bone and spirit. (see Luke 24:36)
This is the only scripture that gives an account of what a resurrected body is made of, and what Jesus was made of. It is stunning, because most of Christendom would suppose that Jesus was pure spirit, because the body of flesh is evil.
It is not true, per Jesus, he made sure everyone learned that the body of flesh and bone was necessary and once changed into an immortal body was as immortal as an uncreated body.
There is no reason and no scripture that tells us he changed out this body for a spirit and went to heaven as a spirit. None. So the position that I take is that he ascended into heaven with a body of flesh and bone and spirit. There is no other scriptural position to take.
I think I understand mixing two contiridicting books and how that would skew one's doctrine on the other book. That is not a scholarly thought. 10 year old's know that.If you have never read the Book of Mormon you can't make an correct judgement on it.
A 10 year old would tell you that you can not talk about 2 books contradicting each other if you have not read 1 of the books. Maybe a 5 year old would tell you that.I think I understand mixing two contiridicting books and how that would skew one's doctrine on the other book. That is not a scholarly thought. 10 year old's know that.
My statement was that reading two contridicting books skews one's opinion and understanding.
Maybe you are not understanding the point. Read the above again.
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