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LDS Mormonism is an enemy of the Cross and therefore not Christian

Ironhold

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What would you do if I was to take a selfie of myself wearing one of the crosses I got out of that vending machine and host it online? All I've got to do is go get my camera out of the car.

After all, that would completely blow your assumption about "non-Christians" not wearing crosses right out of the water.

That's what happens when you use absolutes and draw lines on matters like this instead of stopping to examine how things really work.

What I'm saying is more the reverse - it is necessary to be a Christian to then display a cross.

...except, anyone can do what I did and drop a quarter into a vending machine, thereby giving them a cross to wear.

A person or religion that is non-Christian would never display a cross and would make up excuses to never display the cross.

Obi-Wan: "Only the Sith deal in absolutes."

Anakin: "Wait - that was an absolute statement."

Obi-Wan: "Nuts."

- "Star Wars" parody I saw a few years back.

If that person or religion displays numerous other symbols of their faith but intentionally shuns

Prove that we're intentionally shunning the cross.

To sum up - one can be a Christian and possibly never display or wear a cross (although that would an exception to the norm).

You're making declarations about absolutes and following them up with exceptions.

You can't have it both ways.

but being a Christian typically makes people display the cross

And your proof of this is...?
 
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Ironhold

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Executive_Order_44

Not many people know this, but at one point the church was subject to state-sanctioned genocide right here in the United States. We were regarded as no better than the Native Americans or other groups that the "good Christians" of the nation wanted to see exterminated. In fact, most secular history textbooks I've seen whistle right on past the graveyard when it comes to noting the church's extended conflicts with various government bodies and the ghoulish results.

If Mormons are Christians too, why are they not defending it right alongside the Copts, the Ethiopians, the Armenians, and all the other Christians who take it as so central to our faith that they lay down their lives to protect it.

We are.

The ones who are protecting freedom of religion in the Middle East won't stand out because they are wearing the uniforms of their nations' militaries, while the ones who are protecting freedom of religion in the free world won't stand out because they're wearing the regular attire of their home country.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Once again you are being dishonest. Mormon theology says the blood shed in Gethsemane is where Jesus "prayed and suffered in Gethsemane for the sins of mankind"

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/gethsemane?lang=eng

Nothing about the cross there.
 
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Jane_Doe

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ArmenianJohn

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Exactly right. The mormons here are trying to obfuscate the thread and the OP by turning it into being exclusively about physical symbols. It's not. It's about the Cross, whether it is a tangible symbol or the metaphorical symbol it is in the Bible.

There are religions, including Christian ones, like mmksparbud's SDA denomination, that avoid symbols and icons and images and statues. Ultimately, such things are not necessary for any religion, Christian or non-Christian. But the vast majority of religions, including the vast majority of Christian denominations, use symbols, images, etc. whether it be extensively or modestly.

The reason I included the tangible symbol of the cross in this discussion about the mormons is because mormonism is a religion that likes to use symbols. When dealing with a religion that likes to use symbols, the symbols become part of what you look at to help determine what their true beliefs are and where their faith truly lies.

Those on this thread who are trying (oh, so desperately trying) to change the discussion into being ONLY about the cross as a physical symbol that is displayed are either not able to comprehend what this thread is about or they are intentionally trying to obfuscate the topic so as to avoid answering directly.

Repeatedly, they are focusing ONLY on the physical image of the cross and trying to change this discussion into being ONLY about that. It's not. It's about a religion that denies the cross as a symbol (physical or metaphorical) for the Power of the Gospel, the Power of God, despite that the Bible teaches this.

While I don't agree with mmksparbud's denomination's more "extreme" avoidance of the physical symbol of the cross (and other things) I don't think it's something that is "wrong" or non-Christian. And it doesn't even matter - what matters is that despite what she and her denomination choose to display, what they express with their confession is that they DO confess the Cross as being the Power of God and the symbol of salvation.

So, to reiterate, the physical symbol of the cross only comes into play with mormonism because mormonism and mormons are heavily into symbols. On their special underwear they use symbols, masonic/occultic symbols. In their temples they have symbols all over the place and in their temple ceremonies they are full of symbols, masonic aprons, fig leafs, secret handshakes, etc. Everything is based on symbolism to them so the physical display of the symbol of the cross IS relevant in determining whether or not they are a Christian religion. It is certainly not the SOLE identifier, but it is a major one.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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You seem to want to conflate the meanings of "positive correlation" with "absolute identifier". "Positive correlation" doesn't even apply here. There are no quantities to compare. I tried to work with your terminology and tried to say that there is a positive correlation in that where there is a symbol there is likely a true faith and where there is no symbol there is likely not a true faith. There is no other way I can see "positive correlation" applying here.

And no matter how you apply that term, it does not mean that the symbol of the cross is an "absolute identifier". Even where there is a positive correlation between two values there is no absolute as the values change.

To put it in simpler and more appropriate terms - the symbol of the cross is a strong sign of someone or a religion being Christian. It is not an absolute, it is not immune from being used fraudulently, but it is a strong sign. Likewise, the lack of the symbol of the cross is a strong sign that a person or religion is non-Christian. Again, that is not an absolute, it is not a litmus test, but it is a strong sign. And in the case of a religion that uses symbols heavily, as mormonism does, it is an even stronger sign.

...but it does, however, suggest to others that you are a fan of the team even if you aren't.
See, you get it here, but you don't get it with the cross.
Wearing a Mets Jersey:
A. could mean you're a member of the Mets
B. could mean you're a fan of the Mets
C. could mean you're a fake, phony

A and B are the norm, C is possible but would be rare and an exception to the norm

NOT wearing a Mets Jersey:
A. you could still be a Mets fan
B. You could still be a member of the Mets
C. You could be a non-Mets fan

Even though not wearing a Mets Jersey doesn't prove or disprove anything, it is likely with most Mets fans that at some point they will wear a Mets Jersey or symbol of some sort.

Same with the physical symbol of the cross. It is not a litmus test, but it is a strong indicator. It is not absolute proof of anything but it is a strong indication of a person's or religion's true beliefs and faith.

As for the Biblical symbol of the cross, that is more than an indicator; groups or people who don't agree with the Biblical symbol are definitively not Christian.

When I started this thread I was giving a little bit of credence to mormonism being at least a little bit in line with the Biblical symbol of the cross, but that has since been proven to not be true. Mormonism (and therefore mormons) do not even accept the cross from the Biblical symbolic perspective.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Peter1000

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Acts 11:26 says, "The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch."

It does not say, "The disciples that venerate the Cross, were called Christians first at Antioch."

The bible sets the definition of who are Christians, not you. It is a simple test. Are you a disciple of Jesus, you are a Christian. Mormons are disciples of Jesus. We are Christians, even though we do not venerate the cross. We certainly are not enemies of the cross. That is a silly statement. We understand, and appreciate fully the importance of the sacrifice that Jesus did for us on the cross.

We have just chosen to focus on the resurrection and the ascension and life eternal, so our spires send your eyes to the heavens.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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I wouldn't do anything. Is there something you'd expect me to do? I don't even know what I could do or be expected to do in reaction to someone wearing something.

I have no assumption about ""non-Christians" not wearing crosses", so I don't know what you're talking about with that. This thread's topic is not about simply "wearing crosses".

That's what happens when you use absolutes and draw lines on matters like this instead of stopping to examine how things really work.
When it comes to scripture one can look at the absolutes and the lines drawn by scripture. I'm simply repeating those scripture references. If you don't agree with scripture, that's fine, just say so.

...except, anyone can do what I did and drop a quarter into a vending machine, thereby giving them a cross to wear.
Right. What's your point?

Obi-Wan: "Only the Sith deal in absolutes."

Anakin: "Wait - that was an absolute statement."

Obi-Wan: "Nuts."

- "Star Wars" parody I saw a few years back.
I don't see the relevance of this.

Prove that we're intentionally shunning the cross.
lds.org says that your religion rejects the cross as a symbol of the mormon religion and Gordon Hinckley said it is not a symbol of your religion. Add to that the fact that your religion never, ever uses the cross symbol despite using many, many other symbols (including occultic ones).

You're making declarations about absolutes and following them up with exceptions.

You can't have it both ways.
The only absolute I can make is the one the Scripture makes, which is that the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those that perish but to those of us who are saved it is the power of God. That (and other scripture) is absolute.

And your proof of this is...?
The fact that most Christian denominations worldwide display the cross as the most common and popular symbol of the Christian faith and many (if not most) Christians wear crosses. Again, it's not 100%, it's not an absolute, but it's so widespread and common in Christianity that it's a strong sign of Christianity. Add to this that the Bible states that the cross is representative of the heart of the Christian Gospel message.
 
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Peter1000

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Because we do not venerate or worship the cross, does not mean that we revile the cross. The cross was the instrument of death to accomplish the atonement. There is not a large chasm between normal Christianity and Mormons on this subject. We understand the importance of the cross, but we simply choose to focus on Jesus's resurrection, ascension, and life eternal.

We all believe in the same God. We just believe differently about His nature.
 
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BigDaddy4

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One key factor - who do you say Jesus is? (Mark 8:29, Matthew 16:15) The lds Jesus is different than the Christian Jesus, as stated by your own prophets/leaders. If you truly identified with the Christians at Antioch, then you would not believe the things that your church teaches.

Christ will accept you or reject you, based on what you believe about him. (Matthew 7:21-23). He gets to judge, not you. Don't get caught up in your wishful thinking.
 
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Peter1000

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We do not believe in a different Jesus, there is only 1 Jesus. We do believe differently about his nature. That has been going on since he was crucified, buried, resurrected, and ascended. We are all Christians who follow the 1 Jesus, regardless of what we believe his nature to be.

The important thing is to believe his teachings. If we follow Jesus's teachings and commandments, we will be saved in his kingdom, then in a twinkling of an eye we will all know his true nature. If we don't, we will never know his true nature and it will be part of our hell.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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We do not believe in a different Jesus, there is only 1 Jesus.
I guess then you'd say Gordon B. Hinckley was wrong when he said mormons believe in a different Jesus:
"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints "do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times.

He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God thanall the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages."" (Deseret News, Church News section, Salt Lake City, Utah, week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7)

Is Gordon B. Hinckley wrong?

I think those of us who are non-mormons should probably take the word of a known mormon church leader and prophet over an anonymous mormon on the internet.
 
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Peter1000

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President Gordon B. Hinckley would agree with me, even though he said this. Even though we believe differently about the nature of Jesus and say that he is a different Jesus, it amounts to only a figure of speach. There really is only 1 Jesus. So we all believe in Jesus, the 1 and only Jesus, but we do differ in how we believe in his nature, and we do believe differently about the doctrines he taught.
 
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BigDaddy4

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No, it is important to believe in the One Who Was Sent. The Bible is clear to not follow false prophets and messiahs. The lds has teachings on the nature of Jesus that do not line up with the Biblical Jesus. Do not deceive yourself. Think about the consequences if you are wrong, according to the Bible.
 
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Peter1000

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What is the consequence from the bible if I believe Jesus has his own spirit and his own resurrected body of flesh and bone, and you believe he is 1 of 3 Persons that share the same 1 Being with God the Father and the HS.

What is the consequence for either of us, it we get the nature of Jesus Christ wrong?
 
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BigDaddy4

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Matthew 7:21, 2 Peter 2:1, etc.

Note this from Matthew 24:23-27

23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Where did Joseph Smith claim he met Jesus? Out in a grove of trees??? Uh oh....
 
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Paul1963

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Amen to that

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
 
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dzheremi

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What does this have to do with the post you were replying to? The question I actually asked was "why do Mormons find themselves doctrinally more akin to those who similarly revile the cross than to those who are being persecuted for it?", not "When and where have Mormons been persecuted?"



You are what? Christians? Defending the cross with your blood? How and where?


This is a bizarre idea. Mormons are protecting freedom of religion in the Middle East? Huh. I wasn't aware that there were so many Mormons in the armies of Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, or Iraq. I learn something new every day...
 
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Ironhold

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This is a bizarre idea. Mormons are protecting freedom of religion in the Middle East? Huh. I wasn't aware that there were so many Mormons in the armies of Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, or Iraq. I learn something new every day...

I was speaking generally rather than of specific nations, but the point still stands: we Mormons don't need pedestals to stand on whenever we move to defend freedoms or help the less fortunate. We just roll in and get things done. A lot of folks won't even know we're Mormon until after the fact or some third party makes a big deal of it.
 
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