LDS Mormonism is an enemy of the Cross and therefore not Christian

ArmenianJohn said:

But if you want to ignore the outward, that's fine. So why does the mormon church waste money on statues of Moroni, and CTR rings and symbols of sun, moon, stars, compasses, squares, handshakes, beehives, etc.??? Why don't they feed the poor with those things since they are completely unimportant??? Why do mormon temples have any symbols or signs on them, wasting money on things that are outward???

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A lot of what you're going on about is actually material produced and purchased by third parties.

As far as the temples themselves go, the symbols are directly religious or historical in nature, and are factored in from the get-go.

I think you just admitted that your own religion not only focuses on the outward but also wastes their money that they could give to the poor on completely useless outward symbols.

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Why is it that people automatically jump to "You spent money on X! You let poor people die!" whenever the church puts anything towards something they don't like? You're not the first one who's tried this argument over the years.

And even in doing that they shun the cross because they are not Christian and don't believe in the Christian Gospel.

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If someone's display of the cross is not positively correlated with their status as a Christian (as we all have shown repeatedly), then why are you still on about this?

The whole argument is just silly.

ArmenianJohn said:

It would be different if mormonism believed in an outward display of faith but Jane Doe insists that mormons only believe in INWARD faith and nothing outward.

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You are purposely and knowingly twisting my meaning here.

ArmenianJohn said:

Display of the cross by an individual or denomination IS positively correlated with their status as Christian. However, it is not absolute proof and has no power to make that person or denomination truly Christian.

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I can't speak for others here, but I don't judge on the outward "jersey" a person is wearing. All I care about is whether a not a person is truly a disciple of Christ, and by your own words here display of the cross "is not absolute proof and has no power to make that person or denomination truly Christian".

You whole argument here is silly.

It is surprising that the actual topic of this thread is still a stumbling block for some, given how long it's gone on by now. The gigantic difference between saying whether or not an individual's personal decision to wear a cross as a piece of jewelry or otherwise display a cross should determine whether or not they are Christian (it shouldn't) and whether or not a religion claiming to be Christian should have the same slavific understanding of the cross as actually Christian churches do and hence employ it in their worship and properly venerate it should be obvious. That was actually my point in posting that video earlier from the Indian Orthodox Church, as it is from their annual veneration of the Holy Cross, which occurs on a particular day. I don't know when the Indian Orthodox have it, but we in the Coptic Orthodox Church had the Feast of the Cross on March 19th this year. It's a part of the liturgical life of the Church because it is a part of our theology and doctrine that the cross is to be venerated because Christ our Lord has conquered death through it, and now what was an instrument of death has become a symbol of the Lord's strength and protection. So when Mormons try to reduce it to a matter of personal choice on the same level of an individual's decision to wear cross jewelry, they're quite simply wrong in making that comparison. It's not up to the individual whether or not they want to embrace this understanding and participate in the liturgical life of their church.

The Roman Catholics, for their part, may not have a liturgical celebration specifically dedicated to it (or they may...I honestly don't remember), but they do have ancient hymns like this one (c. 12th century), so it shows that this understanding is common to East and West, and survived the earlier schisms that separated the Latins and the Greeks from the Orientals, and then later the Latins and the Greeks from one another.



He bore the holy cross who broke the power of hell
He was girded with power he rose again the third day
Alleluia
Christ has risen
And shone upon His people whom He has bought back with His own blood
Alleluia
He bore the holy cross who broke the power of hell
He was girded with power he rose again the third day
Alleluia
Christ has risen
Now He doesn't die
Death will not master Him
Alleluia
He bore the holy cross who broke the power of hell
He was girded with power he rose again the third day
Alleluia
Christ has risen
The stone that the architects rejected he has become the chief cornerstone

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This is why those who do not bow before the cross are not Christian. It's not a matter of preferences or individual choice.

dzheremi said:

This is why those who do not bow before the cross are not Christian. It's not a matter of preferences or individual choice.

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Except for the fact that LDS do bow to the cross....

(And before you go off on "but your theology is wrong", theology at large is not the topic here: the topic is specifically cross).

Jane_Doe said:

Except for the fact that LDS do bow to the cross....

(And before you go off on "but your theology is wrong", theology at large is not the topic here: the topic is specifically cross).

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Where? Where is the cross in your buildings? Where is it in your services? What is your theology behind it?

It is not a Christian theology such that you guys would embrace the cross, so why is this any different than the way that you guys say you worship Jesus, but it's not the same Jesus as actual Christianity? Remember how I wrote earlier how proper worship and proper theology go hand and hand? The same is true for the opposite. Heretics usually changed their ways of worshiping to fit what they would accept of the truth. Marcion, for instance, established his own canon which reflected his views on God (namely, that the God of the OT and the Father of Jesus Christ were not the same God, so he basically got rid of the OT). The various dualists (there were many different kinds) would not take communion, due to their objection to the role of physical matter in worship. Like it or not, the fact that your theology is wrong is the issue here. The Mormon rejection of the cross is just a very easy example of it, since the cross is taken by literally everybody else on the planet to be the central symbol of Christianity, so your dissent from giving it its proper due is telling. Notice how the thread title is "Mormonism is an enemy of the cross and therefore not Christian" -- because you are A, therefore you are B. I suppose if Mormons were to make their own thread to reflect their own views on the subject, you'd probably say something like "Non-Mormonism rejects the Book of Mormon and is therefore not Christian". And in such a thread, the theology of actual Christian churches would come into play very much, since there is actual Christian theology behind the rejection of Mormonism and its book.

I mean, fine...if you'd rather everyone assume that you do what you do (or don't do as others do) for no reason at all, that's okay with me...but it kind of contradicts the many pages of links I've been sent to in this thread that explain the theological reasons Mormons have for rejecting the cross.

This is a religious debate board, so 99.9% of the time it is safe to assume that we're talking theology, whether we're agreeing or not.

dzheremi said:

Where? Where is the cross in your buildings?

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I said we bow before it. I didn't say anything about painting it on buildings.

dzheremi said:

Where is it in your services?

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Let's start with the Lord's Supper, taken every week. The prayer reads:
O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this wine to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

ArmenianJohn said:

No, I'm not. If I were, you'd be able to say how I am. But you can't.

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Fine, I'll elboate on your word tiwsting.

I said that the outward display of the two perpendicular lines (a cross) has zero bearing on whether or one is a disciple of Christ. I was talking specifically about that symbol.

You then went and took it out of context saying that "mormonism believed in an outward display of faith but Jane Doe insists that mormons only believe in INWARD faith and nothing outward." (post 302).

That is purposeful and deliberate word twisting.

ArmenianJohn said:

So you think it's a complete waste of money for your church to be paying for things like symbols on temples, angel moronis, statues and paintings of Christ, etc.??? Just say so. I don't think you will though, because you seem to be OK with mormonism using symbols but when others do they are "looking on the outward appearance" or some kind of nonsense.

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This comment is off-topic and a deflection.

Now: since we've established that the display of the cross "is not absolute proof and has no power to make that person or denomination truly Christian" (your words, post 302), please tell me objectively and explicitly: why do you care about the about the outward display?

ArmenianJohn said:

Well, it's foolishness to those who perish.

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There was a car dealer in Salt Lake who would in his TV adds have a picture of the Temple in the background and he would sit there smiling over the top of a desk like he was your Bishop selling you a car. Turned out he was a big crook and he had a misters for years.

Physical symbols mean nothing if they are a sham

Matt 23
"27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Jane_Doe said:

I said we bow before it. I didn't say anything about painting it on buildings.

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I do not understand what you mean. You said that you bow before it. Where is it that you may bow before it? Or if it is not actually there, what do you mean when you say you bow before it?

Let's start with the Lord's Supper, taken every week. The prayer reads:
O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this wine to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.

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I am not seeing evidence of veneration of cross in these, either (which is what my post was about). Rather, they avoid mentioning it at all. Contrast these with an Orthodox prayer for the Feast of the cross, from Christians who are not ashamed of it and do not avoid it, but actively embrace it:

O Christ our God the Son and Word, Who suffered in the flesh and died upon the Cross for our sake on Calvary. You are the Lamb of God Who is without blemish Who carries the sins of the world.


David the prophet sang in the psalms saying: "The Lord reigned from the wood" which is the symbol of the Cross. We worship Your Cross, O our Lord, and we boast in it, as was said by Paul the apostle "But God forbid that I should boast except in the Cross of our Lord" which Jesus Christ our Saviour was crucified upon, and through which we gained our freedom.


Today there is joy in the heavens and on earth for the life-giving Cross, through which Adam and our fore-fathers were returned to the Paradise. This is what we Christians boast in for through this sign we gained freedom, and it is the sign of the Son of Man who will appear in the heavens on the day of His second coming.


Constantine the righteous Emperor, who loved Christ, when he saw the sign of the Cross in the firmament of the heavens and knew that through it he could defeat his enemies, made the sign and carried it with him and defeated his enemies. He made the sign of the Cross honourable for it belongs to Jesus Christ our God and true King.


Queen Helen arose and journeyed to Jerusalem the city of the Lord, and requested with fervour the wood of the Holy Cross which our Saviour was crucified upon. And when she found it a sweet aroma came out and marvellous and miraculous things happened, so she carried it and kept it in great honour.


The mouths of the Christians with all the heavenly orders, boast in the Cross of our Good Saviour which we carry with courage, and cry out saying: "Hail to the Cross, the joy of the Christians and their conquer against their enemies, the steadiness of the faithful, the comfort for those who struggle, the pride of the martyrs who completed their strife".


"Hail to the cross of our Good Lord, the weapon of conquer, the throne of the King, the sign of salvation, the rising light, the sword of the spirit, the well of grace, and the treasure of goodness until the end of ages"


And we ask from our Good Saviour, Who was crucified for us to save our race, that he may make His cross our conquer and hope in our troubles and steadiness in our trials and tribulations, healing to our wounds and protection from our temptations.


We bless You O Christ our God and Your life-giving Cross which You were crucified upon to save us from our sins and we praise You, glorify You, and thank You everyday and every hour and cry unto You saying: "Our Father who art in heaven..."

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Hopefully the difference is not lost on anyone who might read this thread.

dzheremi said:

I do not understand what you mean. You said that you bow before it. Where is it that you may bow before it? Or if it is not actually there, what do you mean when you say you bow before it?

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I'm talking about being humbled before Christ's sacrifice for us: remembering it, honoring it, thanking Him for it, preaching it, etc.

As to rest of your post.... are you complaining that LDS do not have long recited prayers? That's what it's sounding like.

ArmenianJohn said:

No, I didn't take anything out of context. I was referring to your numerous claims that you don't care about the outward but only care about the inward and that mormonism believes that anything to do with the cross is inward only.

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When talking about the cross! The topic of this thread!

ArmenianJohn said:

Because what is inside a person is outwardly displayed.

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Nonsense! Such views are simply shallow and materialist.

And we've already established that lots of creedal Christians don't wear crosses- does that make them non-Christian? No! Now quit with the double standard, because that's all this thread is. Now, I'm going to unsubscribe from this thread, but I have better things to do that marvel at your hypocrisy and shallow materialism.

Jane_Doe said:

I'm talking about being humbled before Christ's sacrifice for us: remembering it, honoring it, thanking Him for it, preaching it, etc.

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I see. So it is a de-materialized kind of memorial. Huh. There might be some Protestant sects who could probably say similar things (after all, it is not uncommon to hear many say that it is a 'memorial'), though even then I suspect that most of the traditional or mainline Protestants, whose roots to older forms of Christianity are more visible than the neo-gnostic types who abhor this kind of physicality in worship, would probably compare the underlying theology and end up rejecting any suggestion that LDS and they worship the same Christ, precisely due to the Mormons' differing beliefs about the Trinity, the nature of God, and so on.

At any rate, I was referring to actual veneration of the cross, of the type explicitly shown in the prayer I shared earlier, the Indian Orthodox video from a few pages ago, etc.. It does not seem that the LDS have anything like that, which is a shame, as it puts them out of step with Christianity in a very big and very obvious way.

As to rest of your post.... are you complaining that LDS do not have long recited prayers? That's what it's sounding like.

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I wasn't aware that contrasting and comparing your religion's practices and prayers with those of my own was 'complaining'. If you read the prayer and compare it to the one that you gave as an example of the supposed reverence you give to the cross (which, uh...doesn't mention the cross ), you can probably see what I mean about how different they are, and not just in length.

We do not shy away from the cross. In fact, both the Copts and the Tewahedo, following the recent martyrdom of their people at the hands of ISIS in Yemen, have taken to stating outright "We are the Nation of the Cross", in affirmation of the name that ISIS had meant to give us as an insult, but which we take as the best thing to be. It is an honor for a Christian to count himself or herself among this nation. The Bible verse that ArmenianJohn referenced earlier really is correct about it being foolishness to those who are perishing. It was in the time of the pagan Greeks and Romans when the verse was written, and it is still today to the cross-hating pagans of our time.


The question I have for Mormons is why they find themselves doctrinally more akin to those who similarly revile the cross -- refusing it but to try to put a good face on what you embrace instead in the context of inter-religious discussions such as this one -- than to those who are being persecuted for it? My people, the Christian people, have already shown their willingness to die as witnesses to it at the hands of people who, much like Mormons, think it foolishness to praise what they see as an instrument of death. If Mormons are Christians too, why are they not defending it right alongside the Copts, the Ethiopians, the Armenians, and all the other Christians who take it as so central to our faith that they lay down their lives to protect it. I remember at the funeral for the martyrs of the New Year's day bombing at the Church of the Saints in Alexandria, the people held up crosses and chanted "With our souls and our blood, we will defend the cross!"

Would Mormons ever say the same? From the answers I have received from their apologetics linked to by posters in this very thread, I don't think they would. To them it is a mere symbol, and one that they are decidedly not in favor of, while for actual Christians, it is life. So there is a wide chasm between Mormonism and actual Christianity, and this cannot be bridged because you have a prayer that you say is to the Father and mentioning his son Jesus (when we also know that by those names or referents you are not referring to the same God as we are; cf. our earlier discussion on Mormon errors concerning the Trinity resulting in polytheistic theology).

This is really not about wearing crosses or displaying them on our persons or buildings---as far as I am concerned, this is about what is the Christian theology of the cross. As I said, our church does not display the cross on our persons or buildings, occasional maybe a cross to designate the building is a church. We avoid what can become a graven image and the object instead of the Deity be worshipped. To the Christian, and biblically, and even just common sense, it is at the cross that Jesus suffered and died and at the cross that He paid the price for our sins. Mormonism teaches that it is at Gethsemane that Jesus suffered and paid the price for our sins, the flogging and the cross is merely where it ended. Gethsemane is their object of veneration, not the cross---THAT IS WHAT ALL THIS IS ABOUT---WHERE JESUS PAID THE PRICE FOR OUR SINS, WHERE HE ACTUALLY SUFFERRED THE MOST!!! I already posted what they say about it----Gethsemane is where they say He suffered the most for our sins----that the decision to offer His life is what His suffering was about!! That is about as far off as you can get. And they insist it is because He sweated blood that it indicates His suffering was greater at Gethsemane than at the cross. I posted the following on another thread but I feel I should repost it here also----

http://www.gotquestions.org/blood-water-Jesus.html
"The Roman flogging or scourging that Jesus endured prior to being crucified normally consisted of 39 lashes, but could have been more (Mark 15:15; John 19:1). The whip that was used, called a flagrum, consisted of braided leather thongs with metal balls and pieces of sharp bone woven into or intertwined with the braids. The balls added weight to the whip, causing deep bruising and contusions as the victim was struck. The pieces of bone served to cut into the flesh. As the beating continued, the resulting cuts were so severe that the skeletal muscles, underlying veins, sinews, and bowels of victims were exposed. This beating was so severe that at times victims would not survive it in order to go on to be crucified.

Those who were flogged would often go into hypovolemic shock, a term that refers to low blood volume. In other words, the person would have lost so much blood he would go into shock. The results of this would be

1) The heart would race to pump blood that was not there.

2) The victim would collapse or faint due to low blood pressure.

3) The kidneys would shut down to preserve body fluids.

4) The person would experience extreme thirst as the body desired to replenish lost fluids.

There is evidence from Scripture that Jesus experienced hypovolemic shock as a result of being flogged. As Jesus carried His own cross to Golgotha (John 19:17), He collapsed, and a man named Simon was forced to either carry the cross or help Jesus carry the cross the rest of way to the hill (Matthew 27:32–33; Mark 15:21–22; Luke 23:26). This collapse indicates Jesus had low blood pressure. Another indicator that Jesus suffered from hypovolemic shock was that He declared He was thirsty as He hung on the cross (John 19:28), indicating His body’s desire to replenish fluids.

Prior to death, the sustained rapid heartbeat caused by hypovolemic shock also causes fluid to gather in the sack around the heart and around the lungs. This gathering of fluid in the membrane around the heart is called pericardial effusion, and the fluid gathering around the lungs is called pleural effusion. This explains why, after Jesus died and a Roman soldier thrust a spear through Jesus’ side, piercing both the lungs and the heart, blood and water came from His side just as John recorded in his Gospel (John 19:34)."


For those who can take it--this gives a very thorough discussion on the ordeal Christ went through, from Gethsemane to the cross.
This article is a physicians view of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ

http://www1.cbn.com/medical-view-of-the-crucifixion-of-jesus-christ


On top of all this, was the moment that God had to withdraw and Jesus felt that withdrawal--"My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?" I had already posted this. To think that all this is nothing in comparison to Gethsemane is ridiculous. That is not to diminish His suffering there, for that is the start of it, Mormons claim that it is impossible for a human to sweat blood like this and only Jesus has done it--wrong--8 year old children have been documented doing it--it happens and has been documented several times. It is under great stress. I already posted about it. It's just the JS did not know about it.

I am unwatching again as this is, as a kot of their believes--demeaning to God, and to Jesus Christ and what He went through.

ArmenianJohn said:

Display of the cross by an individual or denomination IS positively correlated with their status as Christian.

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Then does someone automatically become a Christian if they don a cross, regardless of their personal religious beliefs?

After all, if there *is* a positive correlation, then that means it should go both ways.

However, it is not absolute proof

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Then it's not a positive correlation, eh?

First you give us the absolute of there being a positive correlation, then you try to give us a caveat that says it's not exactly so. Your own statements contradict each other, and in so doing undermine your premise in this thread.

I can wear my Mets jersey all I want but it doesn't make me a New York Met.

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...but it does, however, suggest to others that you are a fan of the team even if you aren't.