LDS Mormonism is an enemy of the Cross and therefore not Christian

Ironhold · Jun 4, 2016

mmksparbud said:
They can't be heretical or have no bearing on LDS theology when the sources quoted are your own books!!!

...except they are not our books.

As I noted in another thread, if you ever have reason to ask whether or not a work is official, check the copyright page.

Any work that's official will be put out through the Church itself, and so it will either read "Copyright Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" or "Copyright Intellectual Reserve."

If the work is published by anyone else, then that anyone else is a third party. This third party has no authority to state what is or isn't official, and so whatever they publish will run the gamut from "profitable to study" to "unorthodox".

Ironhold · Jun 4, 2016

antletems said:
https://carm.org/mormon-beliefs

http://listverse.com/2008/02/04/top-10-bizarre-mormon-beliefs/

http://www.topsecretwriters.com/2012/12/10-weird-mormon-beliefs-hidden-not-publicly-talked-about/

I wanted you to respond in your own words and directly to what I posted.

That's the standard we expect.

Simply spamming us with more links to other questionable sites isn't helping your case any.

mmksparbud · Jun 4, 2016

Ironhold said:
...many of which are not official, something that you seem to have a hard time admitting.

LOL---Not official----written by Mormons for Mormons, published by Mormons---but not official---Doctrines and Covenants and the Book of Mormon are not official??? History of the Mormon church not official?? I guess the word "official" needs clarifying---as defined by Mormonism that is.

Jane_Doe · Jun 4, 2016

antletems said:
They are all from mormon scripture though!

Actually not a SINGLE quotation this list uses is from Mormon scripture. Not a single one.

What they are quoting are non canonical statements, and out of context at that. And with critical omissions. But the websites doesn't tell you that- instead it paints a picture that this is what LDS read out of thier scriptures every day at church.

100% intentional deception by writers

Jane_Doe · Jun 4, 2016

antletems said:
https://carm.org/mormon-beliefs

http://listverse.com/2008/02/04/top-10-bizarre-mormon-beliefs/

http://www.topsecretwriters.com/2012/12/10-weird-mormon-beliefs-hidden-not-publicly-talked-about/

More deceptive untruthful sites

Jane_Doe · Jun 4, 2016

antletems said:
How can you sat that when we have ex mormons who sat that the sites info is very much true?

I don't want to call specific names here... But suffice it to say that some of the "ex Mormons" on here either totally don't know the LDS faith, and/or have serious issues telling the truth.

Goatee · Jun 4, 2016

Ironhold said:
I wanted you to respond in your own words and directly to what I posted.

That's the standard we expect.

Simply spamming us with more links to other questionable sites isn't helping your case any.

But this shows 3 examples of mormon beliefs which one cannot argue with?

Goatee · Jun 4, 2016

Ironhold said:
...except they are not our books.

As I noted in another thread, if you ever have reason to ask whether or not a work is official, check the copyright page.

Any work that's official will be put out through the Church itself, and so it will either read "Copyright Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" or "Copyright Intellectual Reserve."

If the work is published by anyone else, then that anyone else is a third party. This third party has no authority to state what is or isn't official, and so whatever they publish will run the gamut from "profitable to study" to "unorthodox".

Look. The list below has the location for that bit of text! How can you say they are not from mormon authority?

Mormon Beliefs documented
Please note that these teachings are documented from Mormon writers--not anti-Mormon writers:

Book of Mormon
1. The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible, (History of the Church, vol. 4, p. 461).
Devil, the
1. The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).
2. Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).
God
1. God used to be a man on another planet (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321, Joseph Smith,Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614, Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).
2. "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans . . . ," (D&C 130:22).
God, becoming a god
1. After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354).
2. "Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them," (DC 132:20).
God, many gods
1. There are many gods (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163).
2. "And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light," (Book of Abraham 4:3).
God, mother goddess
1. There is a mother god (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443).
2. God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).
God, Trinity
1. The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).
Heaven
1. There are three levels of heaven: telestial, terrestrial, and celestial (Mormon Doctrine, p. 348).
Holy Ghost, the
1. The Holy Ghost is a male personage (A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, Le Grand Richards, Salt Lake City, 1956, p. 118, Journal of Discources, vol. 5, p. 179).
Jesus
1. "Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
2. "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood--was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).
3. "Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh . . . " (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, God the Father, compiled by Gordon Allred, p. 150).
Joseph Smith
1. If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation [the context is the full gospel including exaltation to Godhood] outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon Doctrine, p. 670).
Pre-existence
1. We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth (Journal of Discourse, vol. 4, p. 218).
2. The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus (Mormon Doctrine, p. 129).
3. The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).
Salvation
1. "One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation," (Miracle of Forgiveness, by Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206).
2. A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god," (Mormon Doctrine, p. 193, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 8).
3. Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, 1856, p. 247).
4. Good works are necessary for salvation (Articles of Faith, p. 92).
5. There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 188).
6. "The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79).
7. "As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements--'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,'" (Articles of Faith, p. 79).
8. "This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts," (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).
9. "We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do," (2 Nephi 25:23).
Trinity, the
1. The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).

Mormon beliefs are not in line with Biblical truth because they teach things that are opposed to the Word of God. It is clear that Mormonism is not Christian.

Ironhold · Jun 4, 2016

mmksparbud said:
LOL---Not official----written by Mormons for Mormons, published by Mormons---but not official---Doctrines and Covenants and the Book of Mormon are not official??? History of the Mormon church not official?? I guess the word "official" needs clarifying---as defined by Mormonism that is.

By your same logic, I should presume that people like the Florida minister who burns Korans speaks for you, correct?

After all, he's a "Good Christian" minister, right?

Or perhaps it's time to admit that there's a line to be drawn somewhere, eh?

Ironhold · Jun 4, 2016

antletems said:
Look. The list below has the location for that bit of text! How can you say they are not from mormon authority?

Because most of the works you cited are not authoritative.

My original post quotes the material that is, and also notes why some of the works you reference are not authoritative.

Ironhold · Jun 4, 2016

Jane_Doe said:
More deceptive untruthful sites

Pretty much.

Listverse treats items 3 - 10 as if they were all some big secret when they aren't; anyone who has studied the church even on a cursory level already knows this. They also argue that tobacco is a "pleasure in life", something that even most non-Mormons would call them out on. 1 and 2, meanwhile, represent willful distortions and misinterpretations of what we believe.

And Top Secret Writers doesn't even bother referencing any LDS materials at all, official or otherwise.

Goatee · Jun 4, 2016

Ironhold said:
Because most of the works you cited are not authoritative.

My original post quotes the material that is, and also notes why some of the works you reference are not authoritative.

Sorry, but you would say that even when the evidence is right in front of you!!! Now, that is blind faith buddy!

You say which parts are not fact then?

Jane_Doe · Jun 4, 2016

antletems said:
Sorry, but you would say that even when the evidence is right in front of you!!! Now, that is blind faith buddy!

You say which parts are not fact then?

Antletems: DO you hear us when we tell you that vast majority of this list are NOT Mormon scripture? The website is intentionally deceiving you. Do you understand that?

(I want to make sure you hear and understand this before we mess with any specific examples)

ArmenianJohn · Jun 4, 2016

antletems said:
Sorry, but you would say that even when the evidence is right in front of you!!! Now, that is blind faith buddy!

You say which parts are not fact then?

Hmmm, I guess someone changed their mind on "mormon bashing"... imagine that.

Why don't we just come together as one? EVERY denomination thinks they're the ones who are right (ESPECIALLY the Catholics). Looks like some people just want to "have a go".

Jane_Doe · Jun 4, 2016

antletems said:
Jesus

"Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).

"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood--was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).

"Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh . . . " (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, God the Father, compiled by Gordon Allred, p. 150).

Antletems: I'm going to use this example to illustrate to you how the CARM website is knowingly and intentionally deceiving you about LDS beliefs.

1) Deception by false sources: NONE of these sources are LDS scripture. The website conveniently neglects to tell you that these are entirely non-canonical non-official sources. If they wanted to actual poke holes at LDS beliefs, they could use actual scripture.

2) Out of context: all three "sources" are quotes taken out of context to distort their meaning.

3) Deception by omitting the most critical and important things of LDS beliefs in Christ. Let's look at some actual central LDS beliefs on Christ:

A. Christ is the anointed (Greek) or Messiah (Hebrew)
B. Jesus, who is called Christ, is the firstborn of the Father in the spirit and the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh.
C. He is Jehovah and was foreordained to His great calling in the Grand Councils before the world was.
D. He was born of Mary at Bethlehem,
E. He lived a sinless life
F. Christ wrought out a perfect atonement for all mankind by the shedding of His blood and His death on the cross.
G. He rose from the grave and brought to pass the bodily resurrection of every living thing and the salvation and exaltation of the faithful.
H. He is the greatest Being to be born on this earth.
I. He is the perfect example
J. All religious things should be done in His name.
K. He is Lord of lords, King of kings, the Creator, the Savior, the God of the whole earth, the Captain of our salvation, the Bright and Morning Star.
L. He is in all things, above all things, through all things, and round about all things.
M. He is Alpha and Omega, the first and the last;
N. His name is above every name and is the only name under heaven by which we can be saved.
O. He will come again in power and glory to dwell on the earth and will stand as Judge of all mankind at the last day.

Hmmm... that's a lot of really important beliefs that your website conveniently neglected to mention... why do you think they "forgot" to tell you these things?

mmksparbud · Jun 4, 2016

Ironhold said:
By your same logic, I should presume that people like the Florida minister who burns Korans speaks for you, correct?

After all, he's a "Good Christian" minister, right?

Or perhaps it's time to admit that there's a line to be drawn somewhere, eh?

Haven't got a clue what you're talking about! Are you saying there is an SDA minister burning Korans?? (LOL! When I first read that I thought you wrote KOREANS!!)---This is denomination specific literature were talking about. Now, books that are published by Bishop Sheen would be considered Catholic, though no Papal. Books put out by Pastor Doug Bachelor are SDA though not coming from the SDA Conference.
What is not official about Doctrines and covenants, and the BOM--and Church History---can you please tell me that?!

mmksparbud · Jun 4, 2016

Jane_Doe said:
Antletems: I'm going to use this example to illustrate to you how the CARM website is knowingly and intentionally deceiving you about LDS beliefs.

1) Deception by false sources: NONE of these sources are LDS scripture. The website conveniently neglects to tell you that these are entirely non-canonical non-official sources. If they wanted to actual poke holes at LDS beliefs, they could use actual scripture.

2) Out of context: all three "sources" are quotes taken out of context to distort their meaning.

3) Deception by omitting the most critical and important things of LDS beliefs in Christ. Let's look at some actual central LDS beliefs on Christ:

A. Christ is the anointed (Greek) or Messiah (Hebrew)
B. Jesus, who is called Christ, is the firstborn of the Father in the spirit and the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh.
C. He is Jehovah and was foreordained to His great calling in the Grand Councils before the world was.
D. He was born of Mary at Bethlehem,
E. He lived a sinless life
F. Christ wrought out a perfect atonement for all mankind by the shedding of His blood and His death on the cross.
G. He rose from the grave and brought to pass the bodily resurrection of every living thing and the salvation and exaltation of the faithful.
H. He is the greatest Being to be born on this earth.
I. He is the perfect example
J. All religious things should be done in His name.
K. He is Lord of lords, King of kings, the Creator, the Savior, the God of the whole earth, the Captain of our salvation, the Bright and Morning Star.
L. He is in all things, above all things, through all things, and round about all things.
M. He is Alpha and Omega, the first and the last;
N. His name is above every name and is the only name under heaven by which we can be saved.
O. He will come again in power and glory to dwell on the earth and will stand as Judge of all mankind at the last day.

Hmmm... that's a lot of really important beliefs that your website conveniently neglected to mention... why do you think they "forgot" to tell you these things?

1. That is interesting. Publications, written by Mormons, for Mormons, are not about Mormonism----None of your writings are scripture so we do understand they are not scripture.
2. It would be much more helpful if you would state exactly what is taken out of context and what it is supposed to mean according to you instead of such a generalization, which you guys are constantly doing.
3. It is not deceptive to omit stuff we already know you supposedly do believe and have no problem with! We are, after all, talking about things we do not hold as Christian concepts, not what is a Christian concept.

Jane_Doe · Jun 4, 2016

mmksparbud said:
What is not official about Doctrines and covenants, and the BOM--and Church History---can you please tell me that?!

Did you notice how much of Antletem's list quotes D&C or BoM? Not very much...

Note: none of the LDS scriptures are names "Church History".

Jane_Doe · Jun 4, 2016

mmksparbud said:
1. That is interesting. Publications, written by Mormons, for Mormons, are not about Mormonism----None of your writings are scripture so we do understand they are not scripture.

If you would like me to explain the difference between LDS scripture and something that is written by a guy who happens to be Mormon, I can do that again.

mmksparbud said:
2. It would be much more helpful if you would state exactly what is taken out of context and what it is supposed to mean according to you instead of such a generalization, which you guys are constantly doing.

For example, quote #2 is gravely taken out of context. I'd rather not rehash this again myself, but you can read a good recap of it here:

mmksparbud said:
3. It is not deceptive to omit stuff we already know you supposedly do believe and have no problem with!

If a website is going to describe LDS beliefs, and omit vast majority of the beliefs, that is a HUGE problem.

Would you like my to recap SDA beliefs and omit Christ? (Again, I think that's a huge problem).

mmksparbud · Jun 4, 2016

There you go with scriptures again----none of your books are scripture. All the books are Mormon. Church History is Mormon. What you term canon and what we term canon is not the same thing. You are calling certain of your books canon and scripture when they are not---except to you. It is the Church History written by Mormons for Mormons--they are Mormon books. They are what you guys read. Again, state what is wrong instead of being general. You said the quotes were not scripture, then you turn around and do admit there are quotes from the BOM and Doctrines and Covenants which you do regard as scripture and are official. So to say none are official makes you the one that is misleading. Bottom line---These are still your believes no matter if the Pope had written them! For you to quote a Catholic publication and states SDA's believe in keeping the Sabbath would not make that statement false.

LDS Mormonism is an enemy of the Cross and therefore not Christian

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