LDS Mormonism is an enemy of the Cross and therefore not Christian

tickingclocker said:

This website, Christian Forums, openly uses the word "outreach" for this forum. Outreach is purposeful evangelism. If Mormons don't like being evangelized here, there is little they can do about it. Did they expect anything less?

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Do you honestly think that you are evengalizing? If so, how good of a job do you think you are doing?

mmksparbud said:

Really?? They give the source from Mormon books where you can find the info. Looked up everything and everything checked and has been admitted to here. Claiming the "it's full of spun information" just doesn't cut it any more. Go to your website and you get real spun information---All sounding very Christian, but not the real and complete truth. Like I said, you have to dig through your books to find the real truth that you all won't admit to unless backed up into a corner with the actual writings.

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So let’s look at CARM’s Mormonism in a Nutshell by Matt Slick.

I’m sorry but my inner Trump is laughing at that name cause he did a real slick job of misrepresenting Mormonism.

“Mormonism teaches that God used to be a man on another world and that he became a god by following the laws and ordinances of his god on his home world. He brought his wife to this world, a woman he had married on the other world. She is essentially a goddess.”

First the theory is not set in stone, it’s one of those things we ponder on.

Second the concept comes from a speech Joseph gave where he said,
“God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible.” and then he quoted John 5

“19 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

So he felt that Jesus/Yahweh walked the walk he had seen his Father before him walk. God was not a created being from nothing, he always existed and like Jesus he was always perfectly righteous thus always God. But, like Jesus he learned obedience through the things that he suffered and became the author of eternal salvation to his brothers and sister. When we see Him he will have the same marks in his hands as our Savior has

“Brought his wife to this world?”

I have know idea where he got that!

I’ve always heard the speculation that this earth was originally near Kolob somewhere out there in the universe and when Adam fell it really fell and was removed from the presence of God to be brought here.

“…cursed these rebellious spirits to become demons.”

demons is not a Mormon word, it conjures up all kinds of odd ideas.


“when it comes time for them to live on earth, they have the privilege of being born in races and locations that are relative to their condition and choice made in the spirit realm”

That idea was put forward by a few but not accepted as doctrinal, there were no fence sitters in heaven. We were all on the Lord’s side. Instead most believe we're sent where we can learn the most from our situations.

“Brigham Young, the second prophet of the Mormon church, said that instead of letting any other man do it, God the Father did it with Mary. He said that the birth of our savior was as natural as the birth of our parents. Essentially, what this means is that Brigham Young taught that god the father came down and had relations with Mary, his spirit daughter, to produce the body of Jesus. Though many Mormons will not entertain such incestuous thoughts about God and Mary, this is what Brigham Young taught, and as far as we know, this has not been denied by the Mormon church.”

What he has done is to slickly splice together several different quotes.

What he actually said was “"...[T]here is no act, no principle, no power belonging to the Deity that is not purely philosophical. The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers."

BY never used the word sex and he always referred to Mary as a virgin.

He refers to McConkie’s book but does not give a full picture of his intent, I copied and pasted the following from FairMormon.com

“Bruce R. McConkie said this about the birth of Christ:
God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says.

In the same volume, Elder McConkie explained his reason for his emphasis:
"Our Lord is the only mortal person ever born to a virgin, because he is the only person who ever had an immortal Father. Mary, his mother, "was carried away in the Spirit" (1 Ne. 11:13-21), was "overshadowed" by the Holy Ghost, and the conception which took place "by the power of the Holy Ghost" resulted in the bringing forth of the literal and personal Son of God the Father. (Alma 7:10; 2 Ne. 17:14; Isa. 7:14; Matt. 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-38.) Christ is not the Son of the Holy Ghost, but of the Father. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 18-20.) Modernistic teachings denying the virgin birth are utterly and completely apostate and false.

Note that McConkie emphasized the literal nature of Christ's divinity, his direct descent from the Father, and the fact that the Holy Ghost was a tool, but not the source of Jesus' divine Parenthood.”

Talmage in his book Jesus the Christ written in 1915 explain that God works on high laws than we understand and some how he was able to make Mary pregnant yet still be a virgin. A hundred years later and we all know what a test tube baby is, a virgin birth is perfectly possible.

I could go on here but I think I made my point about how slick and deceptive Matt Slick really is.

I didn't start on here with these threads to evangelize them. I first started to to get information. They may have been under the impression that they were evangelising me. I wanted to know what they believed. I had no idea it woud be so difficult to find out!!! It has been like pulling teeth to get to all the stuff!! Now, I am more tryng to get the information out there as to what they actually believe, and to present the other side of the coin. We are under an obligation to tell the truth of the gospel. To let others know of Jesus and what the bible says. All we can do is present the truth, point out the untruth and pray that God will lift the veil. Sometimes, there is just no other way to say it than point blank.

withwonderingawe said:

First the theory is not set in stone, it’s one of those things we ponder on.

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It's more than that. It has been stated on here that this heavenly Mother is a fact and that you worship her. It may not be set in stone--it is however, one of your believes. As in Jesus was married. It is not a set doctrine that you have to believe, yet there is the quote (I'm not looking it up again) where your literature states that Jesus was obedient to all the law of God and did everything He was supposed to so He had to have been married also in order to achieve exaltation. So when you guys say that you are being misrepresented, it is taken with a grain of salt as it is just "Mormon speak" for --- we don't want to admit that this is what we truly believe.

withwonderingawe said:

So he felt that Jesus/Yahweh walked the walk he had seen his Father before him walk. God was not a created being from nothing, he always existed and like Jesus he was always perfectly righteous thus always God. But, like Jesus he learned obedience through the things that he suffered and became the author of eternal salvation to his brothers and sister. When we see Him he will have the same marks in his hands as our Savior has

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Again----you deny that you believe and then turn around and say exactly the same thing in different words. Bottom line--0God was human before He became God and He was the crucified one on another world, and that is why Jesus died, to follow His Fathers example. Which is not a Christian principle as Jesus died for our sins out of love for us and there is nothing to indicate that God had done the same thing.

withwonderingawe said:

I could go on here but I think I made my point about how slick and deceptive Matt Slick really is.

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No you have shown how slick and manipulative "Mormon speak" is. For it is a fact that BY did in fact state (again, it's been quoted here many times) that Jesus was conceived in the same natural manner as we all are----it is your church that has then tried to dance around this to sound somewhat different, but that is what he said.

mmksparbud said:

I didn't start on here with these threads to evangelize them. I first started to to get information. They may have been under the impression that they were evangelising me. I wanted to know what they believed. I had no idea it woud be so difficult to find out!!! It has been like pulling teeth to get to all the stuff!! Now, I am more tryng to get the information out there as to what they actually believe, and to present the other side of the coin. We are under an obligation to tell the truth of the gospel. To let others know of Jesus and what the bible says. All we can do is present the truth, point out the untruth and pray that God will lift the veil. Sometimes, there is just no other way to say it than point blank.

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It is also essential to continue to pray for Mormons by faith to see God has He IS, and not as they have been told He is. Please join us in continuing to pray for them each and every day to see the Light. Would you do anything less for the Lost? God loves Mormons, too! Never cease to pray for them, even if unable to lead them to the foot of the Cross. God is able to save the most hardened Mormon! I'm looking forward to the day when one of their presidents finally sees the Light of the Gospel, and has the faith to openly walk away from mormonism. Why not ask God for big things? He is Able!

He is working on Mormon hearts and minds. More and more people are walking away from mormonism despite the false rosy picture projected by their leaders. Be prepared for their questions, their fright at discussing anything spiritual when it has let them down and lied to them thus far, and for their disgust and anger at being lied to on such a deeply personal level. THAT is how they view Christian witness. Be gentler with ex-Mormons when you encounter them. Often, they are suffering from Post Traumatic Mormonism Disorder.

From experience, I remember being terrified of anything to do with "God" after leaving mormonism, until I realized it was NOT God's fault for what I was taught and how I was treated. After that admission, it became safer to listen to people discussing God. The first thing I noticed was people congratulating me for having the guts to use my own brain to leave mormonism! That went a long way in restoring my self-esteem. I could use my own brain? Well! That was a true novelty! Then I discovered people in Christianity openly talk about subjects that would have been immediately hushed up or discouraged within mormonism!? I literally revel in such discussions now! Most Christians don't know what you have by being able to argue amongst yourselves so freely. It's a beautiful thing, because I now know at the end of the day, we will all hug each other and love the Lord with all our might!

mmksparbud said:

It's more than that. It has been stated on here that this heavenly Mother is a fact and that you worship her.

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Truthfully even our Mother in Heaven wasn't set in stone until the Proclamation on the Family was put forth in 1995 before that it was one Bible passage and a Hymn written by Eliza R. Snow.

"ALL HUMAN BEINGS—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose."

No getting around it now.
www.lds.org/topics/family-proclamation?lang=eng

The only thing scriptural we have on God living on another earth is from John 5, nothing in any of our other scriptures even hints at the idea. There is the talk of Joseph but it was a talk not scripture. There might be something in the Lectures on Faith, I'd have to read through them again.

You Evangelicals do the same thing, you talk among yourselves and come up with different theories. Walter Martin once said the devil made cavemen, am I going to hold all Evangelicals to his speculation, no. I don't even fault him for it, he was trying to reason through some ideas he had.

withwonderingawe said:

Truthfully even our Mother in Heaven wasn't set in stone until the Proclamation on the Family was put forth in 1995 before that it was one Bible passage and a Hymn written by Eliza R. Snow.

"ALL HUMAN BEINGS—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose."

No getting around it now.
www.lds.org/topics/family-proclamation?lang=eng

The only thing scriptural we have on God living on another earth is from John 5, nothing in any of our other scriptures even hints at the idea. There is the talk of Joseph but it was a talk not scripture. There might be something in the Lectures on Faith, I'd have to read through them again.

You Evangelicals do the same thing, you talk among yourselves and come up with different theories. Walter Martin once said the devil made cavemen, am I going to hold all Evangelicals to his speculation, no. I don't even fault him for it, he was trying to reason through some ideas he had.

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Again----not set in stone---means well, we don't have to believe it, but yes, we really do believe it!!

tickingclocker said:

It is also essential to continue to pray for Mormons by faith to see God has He IS, and not as they have been told He is. Please join us in continuing to pray for them each and every day to see the Light. Would you do anything less for the Lost? God loves Mormons, too! Never cease to pray for them, even if unable to lead them to the foot of the Cross. God is able to save the most hardened Mormon! I'm looking forward to the day when one of their presidents finally sees the Light of the Gospel, and has the faith to openly walk away from mormonism. Why not ask God for big things? He is Able!

He is working on Mormon hearts and minds. More and more people are walking away from mormonism despite the false rosy picture projected by their leaders. Be prepared for their questions, their fright at discussing anything spiritual when it has let them down and lied to them thus far, and for their disgust and anger at being lied to on such a deeply personal level. THAT is how they view Christian witness. Be gentler with ex-Mormons when you encounter them. Often, they are suffering from Post Traumatic Mormonism Disorder.

From experience, I remember being terrified of anything to do with "God" after leaving mormonism, until I realized it was NOT God's fault for what I was taught and how I was treated. After that admission, it became safer to listen to people discussing God. The first thing I noticed was people congratulating me for having the guts to use my own brain to leave mormonism! That went a long way in restoring my self-esteem. I could use my own brain? Well! That was a true novelty! Then I discovered people in Christianity openly talk about subjects that would have been immediately hushed up or discouraged within mormonism!? I literally revel in such discussions now! Most Christians don't know what you have by being able to argue amongst yourselves so freely. It's a beautiful thing, because I now know at the end of the day, we will all hug each other and love the Lord with all our might!

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I have not once come on here without praying first. That I speak the truth of God and not my own, and that the Holy Spirit will open the eyes of those who read and realize His truth when they see it. We can speak His truth over and over, but it requires a heart that is receptive and the Holy Spirit has not been grieved away. God does not force, and it can take years for an unwilling spirit to finally see the light of Gods truth. I know, I didn't want to see it either---took over 25 years to bring me back to God. I kept pushing Him away. God is patient.

Jane_Doe said:

Piece of evengalizing advice:
1) don't treat the person you're trying to evengalize as a sub human idiot
2) don't try to "prove" your superior knowledge by posting a bunch of obvious spun misinformation
3) share what you believe is right.

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They are all from mormon scripture though!

Jane_Doe said:

Nice list of sites for misinformation on LDS beliefs.

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How can you sat that when we have ex mormons who sat that the sites info is very much true?

tickingclocker said:

That's an impressive list. Where did you see this?

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Its in a link above

mmksparbud said:

Really?? They give the source from Mormon books where you can find the info. Looked up everything and everything checked and has been admitted to here. Claiming the "it's full of spun information" just doesn't cut it any more. Go to your website and you get real spun information---All sounding very Christian, but not the real and complete truth. Like I said, you have to dig through your books to find the real truth that you all won't admit to unless backed up into a corner with the actual writings.

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As I've noted earlier, critics of the LDS faith have a history of using official-sounding sources instead of actual, official material.

Many of these sources have no bearing on the church's actual theology, and some are even unorthodox, if not heretical.

But, because they sound official, it's enough to deceive people into thinking that they're legit.

mmksparbud said:

I most certainly did!!

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You're not responding to the counter-arguments.

Rather, your post merely said "But the sources look nice! Why aren't they right?!".

tickingclocker said:

That's an impressive list. Where did you see this?

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Mind responding to the counter-arguments I and WWA noted?

Much of that list is either "material wrenched from context" or "material taken from unorthodox or otherwise unsanctioned sources."

Ironhold said:

You're not responding to the counter-arguments.

Rather, your post merely said "But the sources look nice! Why aren't they right?!".

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I said no such thing!! I said the source for the quotes are listed so they can be looked up. The sources are from your books.

mmksparbud said:

I said no such thing!! I said the source for the quotes are listed so they can be looked up. The sources are from your books.

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That is very true

antletems said:

Its in a link above

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Mind responding to what we've posted, please?

Ironhold said:

As I've noted earlier, critics of the LDS faith have a history of using official-sounding sources instead of actual, official material.

Many of these sources have no bearing on the church's actual theology, and some are even unorthodox, if not heretical.

But, because they sound official, it's enough to deceive people into thinking that they're legit.

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They can't be heretical or have no bearing on LDS theology when the sources quoted are your own books!!!

mmksparbud said:

I said no such thing!! I said the source for the quotes are listed so they can be looked up. The sources are from your books.

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...many of which are not official, something that you seem to have a hard time admitting.

Ironhold said:

Mind responding to what we've posted, please?

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https://carm.org/mormon-beliefs

http://listverse.com/2008/02/04/top-10-bizarre-mormon-beliefs/

http://www.topsecretwriters.com/2012/12/10-weird-mormon-beliefs-hidden-not-publicly-talked-about/