Mormon Speaking Out

[Gishin]

What do you think of his message? And what of the acts of the bishop who stopped him, was he doing the right thing?

YouTube - A Mormon Speaks About Prop 8 in Church

 

[Wedjat]

Mr. Monotone may have had a boring speech, but that's no reason to turn the mike off! I know I know, the babies were crying it was so bland, but the guy's heart was in the right place, and the bishops acts were not only stifling, but also deceitful.

 

[Autumnleaf]

This fellow's questioning of church policy is fine so long as he doesn't do so at church to a captive audience. He can do that on his own time. The Bishop was too kind. This fellow's behavior was both rude and inappropriate.

 

[Blackmarch]

What do you think of his message? And what of the acts of the bishop who stopped him, was he doing the right thing?

He chose the wrong time and method to express his views and concerns to the congregation.
And yes the bishop did the right thing.... otherwise they'd have to let almost every protester a stand at the podium during sacrament.
THe sacrament/ communion is is for the edification, testimony, and focusing on christ... about anything that doesnt revolve around that the bishop the bishop has to make a judgement to request the individual to cease for the duration of the meeting (which in the video this person refused to do, after getting such a request).

And I am sorry that such an individual can have his views swayed by such arguments.

Mr. Monotone may have had a boring speech, but that's no reason to turn the mike off! I know I know, the babies were crying it was so bland, but the guy's heart was in the right place, and the bishops acts were not only stifling, but also deceitful.

they only turned it off when they guy refused to stop or wait till the meeting was over.

 

[Wedjat]

Yeah I guess you're right. I'm not all that up to date on Mormon services (only ever been to one) so I suppose that really wasn't the time or place for that guy to be venting, he could have chosen another method to get his view across to the congregation, like handing out a flier after service or something.
Still, it's an important issue that needs to be addressed.

 

[Super_Rational]

It's hard to get the context from that video, but I don't see the problem in speaking out in the meeting on something that was as controversial as prop 8. It may cause some tensions to flare, but they'll get over it. But then again, I'm the kind of guy who would like to raise my hand & grill the pastor of my wife's home church when he says things that are completely untrue.

 

[Blackmarch]

Yeah I guess you're right. I'm not all that up to date on Mormon services (only ever been to one) so I suppose that really wasn't the time or place for that guy to be venting, he could have chosen another method to get his view across to the congregation, like handing out a flier after service or something.
Still, it's an important issue that needs to be addressed.

I agree.

I think it has. fairlds.org addressed a ton of these issues when the hubbub over prop 8 was being raised. They linked a few research papers done on the issue at the time that moved me from neutrality to support of prop 8.

But with what I heard from the video, that the LDS church supported prop 8 by donating significant funds should not be a big surprise- The LDS church is very conservative when it comes to such topics.
Also due to it's policies the church doesn't tell people to go vote this way or that way. The closest they do is they'll mention the leadership is supporting this or that.
I think about all I heard in church in regards to prop 8 was to pray offer to God that the right thing may be done, and to vote for what you feel is right.
Outside of church time I've had leaders point me towards the support prop 8 network site.
I didn't ask if htey representing the church or not when they did so.

 

[Ruckhard82]

To be honest with you, the guy is daft. The Mormon's came out with that statement on their views regarding the family and homosexuality (including gay marriage I believe) around 15 years ago. A Mormon "discovering" that the Mormon church would support anti-gay marriage legislation is like an othodox Jew "discovering" his Rabbi is opposed to eating pork.

 

[Super_Rational]

To be honest with you, the guy is daft. The Mormon's came out with that statement on their views regarding the family and homosexuality (including gay marriage I believe) around 15 years ago. A Mormon "discovering" that the Mormon church would support anti-gay marriage legislation is like an othodox Jew "discovering" his Rabbi is opposed to eating pork.

He was surprised at the amount of money & political involvement the mormon church put into prop 8, not their views in general.

 

[Penumbra]

I agree with his point (at least what was heard before they censored him).

If a church is sending so much money to try to ban people that are not of their religion to join consensually together in marriage with who they want to, then I'd question their priorities. Their money could go to the poor, stopping violence and educating poorer communities, supporting peace groups, funding medical research, helping out struggling members of their own church, and that sort of thing.

Mormons sent help to New Orleans before Katrina even struck, and helped tremendously. Their money could go to doing more stuff like that.

 

[Blackmarch]

I agree with his point (at least what was heard before they censored him).

If a church is sending so much money to try to ban people that are not of their religion to join consensually together in marriage with who they want to, then I'd question their priorities. Their money could go to the poor, stopping violence and educating poorer communities, supporting peace groups, funding medical research, helping out struggling members of their own church, and that sort of thing.

It's more than just banning homosexuals from being considered married. And I do support such a move by them.

Mormons sent help to New Orleans before Katrina even struck, and helped tremendously. Their money could go to doing more stuff like that.

I have no idea whether they fund medical research but I do know that they use significant amounts of money in the other areas you suggest they put money towards, as well as training finding jobs for jobless people.... and considering how long they have been doing so would very likely dwarf the amount they've spent on prop 8 (unless they decided to go broke on it, which I highly doubt).


I also would caution about assuming that the LDS church has put a lot of money towards it (I assume so because that does seem sensible, and a good probability, ). I havent seen any official records, or any references. or even a number of how much was given by the church to support it or to do an accurate comparison with all the other uses they put their money too, to support such an assumption. I do know there have been many individuals in the church who have supported prop 8 (and some very significantly).

 

[Blackmarch]

Just an update; I've been digging around and so far I have not been able to find any good evidence that the LDS church itself donated to Prop 8,

nor have I been able to find any record of leaders commanding the congregation(s) to support, vote or donate to prop 8.

I am going to have to modify my stance in regards to the topic a little- I've assumed that the LDS church did donate to prop 8, I retract that assumption until i can find some more solid information in that regards.
however I do believe that if the LDS church did donate to something that it would have donated to prop 8.

 

[Maren]

Just an update; I've been digging around and so far I have not been able to find any good evidence that the LDS church itself donated to Prop 8,

nor have I been able to find any record of leaders commanding the congregation(s) to support, vote or donate to prop 8.

I am going to have to modify my stance in regards to the topic a little- I've assumed that the LDS church did donate to prop 8, I retract that assumption until i can find some more solid information in that regards.
however I do believe that if the LDS church did donate to something that it would have donated to prop 8.

Actually, the LDS church admits (in public filings) to having spent over $189,000 in support of Prop. 8.

As for the leaders "commanding" the congregations to support Prop. 8, all you have to do is look at a letter sent from the LDS First Presidency (LDS top leaders) that read:

The Church will participate with this coalition in seeking its passage. Local Church leaders will provide information about how you may become involved in this important cause.

We ask that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman.

So, you can claim it wasn't "commanded" but that comes off as a rather weak argument, especially when Mormons (and especially Mormon leaders) frequently quote their scripture which states, "For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward. Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness". This is further reinforced by a quote that has been frequently repeated in LDS Conferences, that "When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done.When they propose a plan--it is God's Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God works in no other way."

In this case, the LDS leaders had spoken (an official letter sent by the church) and, as such, it was viewed as a command (following the prophet) by devout LDS members.

 

[Blackmarch]

Actually, the LDS church admits (in public filings) to having spent over $189,000 in support of Prop. 8.

no they provided resources for individuals who supported it;

"
Top officials with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints filed reports today indicating that they donated more than $180,000 in in-kind contributions to Proposition 8, the November ballot initiative that banned same-sex marriage in California.
The contributions included tens of thousands of dollars for expenses such as airline tickets, hotel and restaurant bills and car-rental bills for top church officials such as L. Whitney Clayton, along with $96,849.31 worth of “compensated staff time” for church employees.
The church said the expenditures took place between July 1 and the end of the year. The church’s involvement has been a major issue in the campaign and its aftermath. Individual Mormon families donated millions -- by some estimates more than $20 million -- of their own money to the campaign.
On top of that, some Prop. 8 opponents say church officials violated election law by failing to file campaign disclosure reports outlining church funds being spent on the campaign. Fred Karger, who filed a complaint with the Fair Political Practices Commission after the election alleging that church officials had not properly disclosed their involvement, said he thought today’s filing proves that his complaint has merit.
“They said they reported all their travel ... now, when there is a [complaint filed] they disclose 25 Southwest tickets just in October,” he said. “They were required to report this” in an earlier filing, he said. Church officials could not be reached for comment this evening.
-- Jessica Garrison

"
-Mormon church reports spending $180,000 on Proposition 8 | L.A. NOW | Los Angeles Times

As for the leaders "commanding" the congregations to support Prop. 8, all you have to do is look at a letter sent from the LDS First Presidency (LDS top leaders) that read:

So, you can claim it wasn't "commanded" but that comes off as a rather weak argument, especially when Mormons (and especially Mormon leaders) frequently quote their scripture which states, "For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward. Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness".

and how does this counter what I've said?

This is further reinforced by a quote that has been frequently repeated in LDS Conferences, that "When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done.When they propose a plan--it is God's Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God works in no other way."

that has been quoted often in Their conference meetings?
funny I must've been asleep only for those... altho in this case your argument is weak because even if so- then you're saying their minds are made up to just ask us to do something, that it is god's plan just to ask? that it is the way just to ask?
Have you read the bible??


Do you have the skills to identify the difference between a command and a request? Did you even read the links you've posted?

In this case, the LDS leaders had spoken (an official letter sent by the church) and, as such, it was viewed as a command (following the prophet) by devout LDS members.

No in this case they were asked to support prop 8 (at least thats what I'm guessing constitutional amendment on marriage refers to). They haven't been told to do it.

How it's viewed depends on the person doing the viewing. If it was a command it would not be asking, you can trust me on this.

 

[Maren]

no they provided resources for individuals who supported it;



"
-Mormon church reports spending $180,000 on Proposition 8 | L.A. NOW | Los Angeles Times





and how does this counter what I've said?

Simple, if they hadn't donated to "Prop. 8", they would not have been required to make legal filings detailing their spending. The fact is they spent $180,000 that was legally required to be reported as donations to Prop. 8. Whether is was "in kind" (such as setting up phone banks for people to call about Prop 8) doesn't make it any less of donation than if they had given the $180,000 directly to Prop. 8 groups so that they could pay for additional phone lines.

that has been quoted often in Their conference meetings?
funny I must've been asleep only for those... altho in this case your argument is weak because even if so- then you're saying their minds are made up to just ask us to do something, that it is god's plan just to ask? that it is the way just to ask?
Have you read the bible??


Do you have the skills to identify the difference between a command and a request? Did you even read the links you've posted?

Actually, I do. I also know Mormon culture very well. For example, have you ever been "commanded" to take a church calling or have they always asked? Yet have you ever turned one down?

No in this case they were asked to support prop 8 (at least thats what I'm guessing constitutional amendment on marriage refers to). They haven't been told to do it.

How it's viewed depends on the person doing the viewing. If it was a command it would not be asking, you can trust me on this.

And yet many people, from the stories I've heard, were 'called' to church positions to coordinate efforts to pass Prop. 8 in their ward. And again, while not a command, how many people turn down church callings (not saying it never happens, but among the faithful it is rare)?

I guess, though, for further support let me give you a quote from a message board for last year where a Mormon stated in response to Prop. 8, "Either you believe the Prophet speaks the will of the Lord or you don't." And among active Mormons I know, that is typically the response when it comes to things the prophet "asks". A similar comment was, "either you support prop 8 or you don't believe that President Monson is a Prophet of God".

Or maybe to use a comment that was made years ago in conference by Harold B. Lee, "We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through his prophet, ‘as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; … as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.’ (D&C 21:4–5.) There will be some things that take patience and faith. You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself, with patience and faith, the promise is that ‘the gates of hades shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory.’"

And we see similar things from the apostles and First Presidency. The Ensign (official Mormon magazine) First Presidency message from June, 2008 states, "When a prophet speaks, those with little faith may think that they hear only a wise man giving good advice. Then if his counsel seems comfortable and reasonable, squaring with what they want to do, they take it. If it does not, they either consider it faulty advice or they see their circumstances as justifying their being an exception to the counsel." I think you know there are lots of examples of this type of quote, even if you don't "hear" them because you are so used to the message.